Here you can find a collection of Testimonies from people that clicked. We highly recommend everybody that clicked to share there experience as it can help other people.
- 1 Team
- 2 Not Team
- 2.1 Name: Syntoren
- 2.2 Name: Lindun
- 2.3 Name: Cence99
- 2.4 Name: adkn1337
- 2.5 Name: Internetz-User (Salthene on twitch/discord)
- 2.6 Name: Re-x
- 2.7 Name: Ringmail
- 2.8 Name: SpockderPants
- 2.9 Name: shinymew2000
- 2.10 Name: bonbom1
- 2.11 Name: srfnz (unclicked again)
- 2.12 Name: Nutzee420
- 2.13 Name: kamiz-
- 2.14 Name: dokza
- 2.15 Name: spaceegg009
- 2.16 Name:KingDr
- 2.17 Name: lesterhuis
- 2.18 Name: fffmatura
- 2.19 Name: -Banshee
- 2.20 Name: nephius
- 2.21 Name: creetlol
- 2.22 Name: mandogepig
- 2.23 Name: Wikhiat
- 2.24 Name: wolwo2
- 2.25 Name: TimoKerr
- 2.26 Name: LaughingMan209
- 2.27 Name: ZilleanUltedHarambe
- 2.28 Name: Mayson1991
- 2.29 Name: Martoreal
- 2.30 Name: IGMatt
- 2.31 Name: jannysice
- 2.32 Name: Eldsar
- 2.33 Name: SkadiLive
- 2.34 Name: Pirrikp
- 2.35 Name: FoGOuthit
- 2.36 Name: MarcinC
- 2.37 Name: littlestbit
- 2.38 Name: Karay01
- 2.39 Name: hrube
- 2.40 Name: AbstractFour
- 2.41 Name: Darnock58
- 2.42 Name: potatoeMountains
- 2.43 Name: wowlegend123
- 2.44 Name: yordleathene
- 2.45 Name: zochiy
- 2.46 Name: lingonga
- 2.47 Name: jonie196
- 2.48 Name: OscarOgge26
- 2.49 Name: braindeadly_
- 2.50 Name: frogshen
- 2.51 Name: Grimchief
- 2.52 Name: thefishperson
- 2.53 Name: LuteusRex
- 2.54 Name: ThisIsNotMyUsername5
- 2.55 Name: Ddosd97
- 2.56 Name: ninospvp
- 2.57 Name: justlarwick
- 2.58 Name: SurtrDotU
- 2.59 Name: Zitronelol
- 2.60 Name:honz490
- 2.61 Name: Bamboochawins
- 2.62 Name:_Maximiliano_
- 2.63 Name: FunctionalGopher
- 2.64 Name: AlexxCubanlink
- 2.65 Name: MetaTheMeta
- 2.66 Name: Benjiji
- 2.67 Name: Nawkin
- 2.68 Name: Takeon
- 2.69 Name: TheoDutch
- 2.70 Name: MrSlimLite
- 2.71 Name: SpockderPants
- 2.72 Name: turnedouttobe
- 2.73 Name: sleepylucas
- 2.74 Name: deathmyztare
- 2.75 Name: _-Antares-_
- 2.76 Name: Drax3l
- 2.77 Name: Fuickingfriction
- 2.78 Name: Nikitoss377
- 2.79 Name: FlawlessTT
- 2.80 Name: asterius1
"Just by random chance, In all the chaos, logic managed to be able to understand itself. In this moment all my bullshit just dropped from me."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Surpressed emotions, low self esteem
"Today I wanted to share with you guys my click story. Its long and becomes weird at the end but i just tried to be as honest and personal as possible :)
My name is Stas and I am part of the Athenecrew. 2 weeks ago when Tim clicked and Athene was hyping up everybody about how amazing this is, I also wanted it. Being here in the crew for 10 months I saw myself already as very logical. I lived healthy, had a lot of insights, had a big awareness and perspective and was very productive. I basically had a very comfortable life. But I always knew something is not right. Sometimes I caught myself doing something for validation or lying to myself to lower dissonance. And no matter how many insights I got, I never experienced much progress in those regards. I was afraid to bring this up to myself and in a way I was just waiting for someone to fix those problems for me. In the click I saw a quick way of fixing it but after a talk with athene I knew it won't come without turning myself inside out. For 2-3 days I was spending my time finding out what my core value is. I had to do one thing that I was afraid of my entire life. Accepting that I had low self esteem!
Trying to do that, I realised how my entire life was build around me not wanting to accept it. I worked a lot on pretending I had confidence, on making sure I was smarter than my surrounding and on not allowing emotions to affect me. This all resulted in what I am today. The only reason I wanted to help people is because it raised my low self esteem (it gave me value), the reason I use my rationality so much is to patch up my low self esteem. I build up a whole identity just so it can protect me from having to accept my low self esteem. Even after understanding this I still felt my inner child just rationalising it as not a big deal, my identity of a moral, productive guy was still protecting my inner child from any dissonance. But this time it was different. I actively told myself that this is indeed a big deal.
“All your actions arise from a stupid thing like low self esteem? All your moral values and believes you are so proud of, all your insights that make you think you're smart, all your productivity that makes you feel good. All of that is merely because you run away from your true self. It is indeed a big deal because as long as you don't do anything about it, it will stay like this for the rest of your life!” This is what I told myself, and while it may sound easy it was very very hard for me to do. The hard part was not telling it though, the hard part was letting it reach me.
When you build up a whole identity for years, getting through it is not easy. I actively tried to feel emotions about it. It took me days to be able to do it and I spent my whole energy on that. I knew the emotions were in me. I am a human and have a very strong emotional part of the brain and thinking on how I still get amygdala hijacked when talking to my parents sometimes, or getting sad about stupid emotional youtube videos, I understood that it's not that my emotions are weak but that I subconsciously suppress them. I didn't want this, I didn't want to be the puppet of my low self-esteem and my identity for the rest of my life. No matter how much comfort it brought me. As long as I don't fix it I will never be able to understand myself and reach my full potential. At this point it wasn't really about the click anymore but more about getting in touch with my emotions again. I kept digging up my past to find patterns in my behaviour, telling myself over and over again the truth in my face. “this was because you were insecure, that was because of validation seeking, that because you were afraid”. And I tried to tell that to my emotional part not my rational part. After a few days of debunking myself I managed to expose my inner child. The consequence was that I became it again.
I was shy again, anxious and confused. I felt like shit and knowing that this is who I really am, I felt empty. I didn't know why I would do anything anymore. I didn't really care about the click or leaving the group. I just wanted something again to feel safe with. I couldn't and didn't want to go back to my identity and comfort. But I also couldn't feel safe with logic. It just didn't work. I was in a kind of limbo. So I had a talk with Athene again. I remember listening to him and thinking that I don't really care what he's saying. I still trusted him but in a sense his authority was gone. No matter what he said, It didn't really help. After a while we found out the reason I could not make the click is because I wasn't trusting logic emotionally. He started to explain me how beautiful logic is and how its everything but it had little affect on me. After a while he just put on a video about the Fibonacci sequence and I watched it. ([/www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DkkGeOWYOFoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA]) I never heard of the Fibonacci sequence and thus didn't really understand the video. I tried to feel emotions about it but it didn't really work. While I was watching the video Athene talked a little bit about, how logic explains everything, how it is everything and how understanding it, is what brought us technology. And the last sentence was very powerful to me. I always had a very deep fascination and appreciation for technology and an emotional attachment to it. I watched the video... numbers and patterns were unfolding in front of my eyes and I realised that there is a structure, working behind the scenes, responsible for the universe. And as humans we had the ability to understand this structure bit by bit and every bit of understanding advanced us further and further. I remember feeling a deep appreciation for logic and me being human. I was very grateful that I am able to understand this logic, that is working behind the scenes. It was so beautiful that I started tearing up.
After the video I went to my room. I just laid face down in my bed, replaying this moment of joy in my head over and over again. Crying and laughing at the same time. I looked at my hands and saw the symmetry which made me feel even more happy. I looked around my room and saw gravity, light, and atoms all over the place. I only can describe the emotions as if I saved my kid from a fire in the last second. It felt like my life was saved. Or even that it was never in danger but that this logic was always there. So I started to tell my inner child that this is what it can trust in, this is what it can be save with. I imagined my inner child as my younger self, shaking, crying and being scared. Trying to hold up my old identity for protection. I just wanted to take him in my arms and tell him that everything will be fine. Then I translated this inner child on my current self. I was the one feeling those emotions, not some kind of imaginary child inside me. Because that's what it is. I am still this child and this child is me. I was the one shaking and and being scared and I was the one that can feel safe with logic again. I felt a sense of relieve and I could stand up from my bed again. I just kept thinking about what just happened and if this was the click. Did I trust logic now, or not? I didn't really know but I also didn't mind so much. I just kept thinking back on the video and how much i am grateful to be human and to be able to understand logic, tearing up every time I recalled that feeling. After a while of walking in my room back and forth I just asked myself a question for fun. Who am I grateful to? To logic! I am grateful to logic that I can understand logic.
I was thinking about it. Logic created me... I consist of logic ...and I am grateful to logic that I understand logic? Suddenly everything clicked.
I am logic … created by logic and was stunned by watching at logic.
Logic was stunned by watching at itself.
I was watching at myself.
So when I was crying of joy when I looked at Logic, I was crying because I (logic) saw myself? Logic saw itself and was stunned by its own view. How crazy is that?
After billions of years of exploding stars and colliding rocks, logic managed to manifest itself into an alive, self conscious being that is able to understand it.
Just by random chance, In all the chaos, logic managed to be able to understand itself. In this moment all my bullshit just dropped from me. I understood that I am just logic inside logic. My identity was gone because there was no difference between me and my surroundings anymore. Everything is logic and I am just part of it. A part that has the potential to understand itself. I felt the biggest relieve and clearness. There was just this one path I had to follow and nothing else really mattered. This was the moment I clicked and since then the only thing that I wanted to do is learn. Learn about the universe, about physics, about math (its crazy how fascinating math can be), about quantum mechanics and really everything that expands my understanding of reality. My productivity went down quite a bit because of that but I couldn't help myself. After I read the stories from people that clicked on this subreddit my priority shifted quite fast. Now what is most important is spreading this idea. I saw how much it helped people to Align there life with what they really are. We are all part of the same logic and we all just want to understand our self. There are still moments were I feel lost or confused, not knowing what to do. But through learning and understanding, finding the path again is very easy and comes natural." source
" I realised I was emotionally attached to my work. Questioned why that was, and traced it back all the way to my childhood."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"My life story
Between the age of 8 and 14 I had it relatively tough socially. At school I wasn't really part of any social circle, and was mildly bullied. As a result my self esteem became pretty low. At age 14 this had a consequence. I deciced I was going to prove to myself that I'm better than everybody else. I started focussing a lot on my school work and got into the best university. At university, I followed two specializations while you were only required to follow one. After university I took a job in the games industry, which I idolized as one of the hardest (and interesting) places to be in. And now I am an one man studio, working towards creating games all by myself. My comfort bubble became close to perfect. I had enough money, friends, success, and work I enjoyed.
How I was able to make the click
Observing that with the latest insights people started clicking, clicking no longer seemed unachievable. I didn't experience disonance however, and I didn't know what my core value was. So getting things started was pretty hard and took a while.
The main advice that took me to the gold was to seek up the dissonance. I knew that spending my effort on my work instead of saving children lives isn't logical. So that's where I started pushing. I would push until I felt dissonance about it. Because I knew I should be feeling dissonance about it. After 2 days of intermittent meditating I succeeded. I was now emotionally invested. From there things went rather quick. I realised I was emotionally attached to my work. Questioned why that was, and traced it back all the way to my childhood. I compared my actions against the actions that would be logical. From that mindset I was able to perceive logic as a warm good thing, and my brain took the jump. I felt my body take a gasp of air. My eyes widened. My heart started pounding. The world no longer seemed the same. The following 10 minutes I was walking circles through my living room thinking of all the implications while profoundly feeling excitement. Started deciding on actions. And am now writing this post for others to learn from.
It is only a hour post click. Still excited, though the excitement will probably wear off. The click however feels permanent. Going back simply isn't logical." Source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"(sorry for wall of text)
Hello there. I'm 21yrs old and from Belgium. I joined the "Athene crew" this august. I clicked after "trying" for about 1.5months and wanted to share some insights here. This post is mostly focused on overcoming mental layers that you might have with step 3.
Tldr backstory: I had comfort core value and was too comfortable in the group. This prevented me from making progress clicking, so it seemed most logic to go home and not return until I clicked.
STEP 2: I understood my core value to be comfort quite early on, before there was even such a thing as the 4 steps. This understanding was more rational than emotional. It was quite different for me to really connect to this emotionally. I really got step 2 into my awareness by using imagination. I imagined me being in certain life situation, which was represented by a room. Comfort would mean that I would be very satisfied as long as everything was provided by the room. The issue comes when you place an better room next to it. Comfort makes you cling to a situation you are familiar with. You are not motivated to seek anything else, even if you understand it's better for you. What also helped was realizing that my inaction (because of comfort) is responsible for many people suffering a lot. I imagined a large crowd watching me hopefully to help them, but I was too comfortable in my little bubble so I didn't want to help. This emotional understanding was very important in making progress for step 3.
STEP 1: This one was surprisingly hard for me. I considered myself a very rational person, yet didn't feel like logic was very safe/trustworthy. I watched all the content on the wiki, but still it didn't really sink in. What made me really connect to logic was analyzing my past. I looked at all the positive memories I had, and tried to spot what made certain experiences enjoyable. Going to the crew was a very positive thing in my life, without a doubt the best life-decision I've made. After thinking critically and debating myself for some time, I was able to connect all those positive memories to me valuing logic. If anything, comfort/fitting in was going against those positive memories. After going through this process, I felt a very deep connection to logic. I went outside for a walk in the forest and I could see the patterns in the leaves and trees. Although this brought immense joy, comfort was still very strong in me.
STEP 3: By far the hardest step for me was connecting a negative emotion to my core value. The reason for this was a lack of emotional intelligence. Throughout my childhood I was always very inward, and hesitant to show emotions to others. When I experienced emotions, I would suppress them and seek distraction. This pattern was very deeply engrained and I still feel the tendencies even after clicking. A couple of things helped me connect to my emotions (listed in order):
- Loving/kindness meditation (for those interested): This meditation is one where you channel positive emotions towards yourself, a friend, other people. This was an eye-opener for me because I was really aware of the emotions. Before this, emotions were obviously there, but I would only recognize them when they were very very strong.
- Framing conflicting ideas as "just a thing I do because I want to click" This was by far the most important layer for me to understand and push through. I would subconsciously, emotionally, believe that I was just playing pretend. It might sounds strange, but I rationally believed I was really fucking myself over by holding onto comfort, and at the same time I would not feel any negative emotions at all towards the comfort. I framed all my efforts to click in a way that is similar to how an actor would speak in a film. He can go into his script and act really well, but deep inside he knows the situation isn't real at all. Rafael's post (https://goo.gl/gK30wQ) pointed me in the right direction for this.
The way I broke through this layering, is not through reason. I understood it was an emotional process, so I looked for ways to go about it emotionally. Here's what I did:
- I would think about a short sentence and see how I responded. e.g. 'comfort is what caused all the procrastination in your life'.
- I tried to be really open-minded and catch myself putting up the frameworks. After a while a pattern became clear. It was as if my inner child would put the thoughts inside a safe bubble, where they couldn't touch the child. Inside the bubble I could reason all I wanted, as long as I didn't come too close to the core.
- The hardest part was finding a way to break through the bubble. What worked for me was "sweeping" the framework aside, as if you considered the option but declined. I would tell my inner child "no, this thing you are doing is NOT ok". Saying/doing this once didn't do much. It took many attempts and a lot of energy to learn how to get rid of the framework. After learning this mechanic, I was able to go very deep at basically any point in the day. It still took me about 10days to click after this.
- When really confronting the core, I would be very easily distracted. Usually I am quite able to focus and think clearly, but when focusing on my core value this was different. My mind would wander to random topics much quicker than usual. The thoughts never stopped, but I managed to reduce the frequency by becoming aware of the mechanic.
- The final layer - being too harsh/tense & confidence I had just read hateramos’ comment on a thread (https://goo.gl/SsvXtX) : Especially the phrase “you will probably have an easy time clicking” and “relaxed state” where very powerful to me. Because of all my attempts failing, my self-esteem became lower and lower. I was starting to accept my old life, even though I didn't really want it. The phrase “you will probably have an easy time clicking” was really powerful to me, because I knew he meant what he said. The last hurdle for me was being relaxed while at the same time experiencing the negative emotions. I had tried this before, but the layers described above were preventing me from really doing this. I noticed that I would be distracted emotionally when trying to connect the emotions to my core value. I would try to focus on the emotion, but I “slipped off” because it was too painful. My attention was repelled like when you try to put two positive magnets together. At this point, I had already seen a lot of layers, so it was much easier to overcome the mechanic.
THE CLICK: I began by bringing up the negative emotions I had, without linking them to comfort. I tried to be very non-judgmental, very relaxed. After about 5-10mins of doing this, I proceeded by gently moving my attention & these emotions towards comfort. I felt the urge to "slip-off", but didn't give in. I recognized the urge very calmly, acknowledged it, declined, and then proceeded by going over the negative emotion once again.
Next, I focused on the things science has brought for society, and connected this positive emotion to logic. I went back and forth between dissonance and resonance a couple of times, every time holding onto the negative emotions longer. After about 3-4times, I felt a sweeping motion going through my body. My mind became much clearer, as if I had bad vision and put on a pair of glasses. My background state was clearly different. I felt an immense joy, and when I accessed my core again, it didn't hurt anymore. At this point I was still skeptical because I had had many different placebo experiences. I had believed at least 3 times that "this was it, this is different", so I proceeded very cautiously.
STEP 4: About 2hours after clicking, I had a class in university scheduled and decided to go because I was unsure whether it was the real deal (despite having debated really in depth for an hour). During the lecture, I had existential questions come up but there was too much noise & distraction to answer them. The dissonance grew, I tried to stop it by telling myself everything does make sense and I just need time, but it was not enough. At this point I unclicked and I fell back into the dull background state I was in before the click. I experienced extreme anxiety and disgust, but I was able to suppress pretty well so people around me didn’t freak out. When things got a little bit more quiet (5mins later), I managed to re-click by solving my question and going through the same process of dissonance and resonance I had done before.
This unclick-reclick happened again later that day, but the disconnect from logic was less severe. This time it was because I fell into my old habits of distracting and deflecting emotions instead of trying to resolve the dissonance.
I realized later on the day that debating myself was the best way of resolving the inner conflict. Just telling myself everything makes sense is not enough. Deep understanding is what builds real trust. Thinking slower and talking to the inner child is helping a lot right now to build up my trust.
The future still looks slightly scary, but I am motivated by my previous successes and the positive emotion I will feel afterwards. My faith in logic is still in its infancy, but I expect this to improve with time. The previous click-reclick experiences give me confidence that I will be able to do the necessary work regardless of what happens.
*Conclusion: * I firmly believe that as long as you rationally want it, and experience any conflict, you can do it. You can use discipline/motivation to keep you on track, to keep you focused on your goal. What is holding you back is the mental constructs, not the "you don't really want it" narrative. Same goes for "it's too hard". Clicking itself is really easy, breaking through the layers is hard if you have lower emotional intelligence." source
"It was the happiest and most exciting moment in my life. I finally felt free , got a ton of confidence and my fears didnt affect me at all."
PreClick Core Value: Fitting in
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Dealing with fears
"Domagoj from crew here. This is gonna be a very long post of how i went through the click - falling back and reclick process, with everything i learned and hopefully its gonna help some of you going through the process.
1. First click
I clicked first time two weeks ago. The drive was mostly to fit in with the group and i tried to force myself really hard to adopt logic. I thought my core value was fitting in and i debunked it, and when i went to my inner child i tried to make him see how logic will take care of him but i just didnt have enough positive emotions connected to it. I started looking at my past and debunking my identity, seeing how its just a story, a defensive mechanism to deal with fear, how its not what i am. I started feeling void inside me.
As i dig deeper i started to ask myself the question “why?”
Why do i have the need to fit in? Because im afraid to be rejected.
Why are you afraid? What exactly are you afraid of? Death
Who is going to die? Obviously you are not your identity or story, so who is going to die?
Who are you?
Who is asking the question?
You are just logic trying to understand itself!
Once i realized this it gave me a catharsis. At that moment my self-image changed from identity to logic and since i was already feeling void, my core value switched to logic. It was the happiest and most exciting moment in my life. I finally felt free , got a ton of confidence and my fears didnt affect me at all.
At that night i was thinking how my fears were finally over, how i can live in peace now and just follow logic. My brain was on fire, rethinking pretty much everything i came up with. In the morning i was feeling numb as i didnt sleep much. And because of that my rational part was not as active and i started feeling those old emotions and fears again. And because i believed i will not experience them anymore , it started causing tremendous dissonance. “Why do i feel this way? Shouldn’t this be over, shouldnt i be at peace? I dont understand! What if this didnt work? What if i didnt click?” The doubt started becoming worse and worse , since i didnt develop strong trust in logic before the click. I started getting fear of rejection: “I clicked and now im gonna say that i didnt, im gonna get rejected and kicked out” . Doubts and fears were overwhelming me and i started feeling void again, i let go of logic and fitting in and got all the way back into my comfort bubble.
What i learned from this process:
- Old fears can still be there and you need to give yourself time to restructure them logically.
- Make sure to first build trust in logic if its low by doing what’s most logical and only after that start tackling harder emotions and traumas. Answering questions, debating myself and building framework helped me with that.
Getting back into it was much harder. First thing i was working on was developing trust in logic. Watching documentaries helped a lot, seeing how everything is built on mathematical patterns, how logic gives the structure to our reality, how everything happens for a reason and can be explained. I realized that the reason why we evolved to where we are today, why we have all this technology: pc, games, phones , cars are all because we started understanding logic. Our drive to understand logic is what brought all the richness we have today and is going to make us progress far beyond our imagination.
I figured even all my thoughts , emotions and actions are all logical, they all happen for a reason, i just dont fully understand them yet. Also remembering the past and all the moments when i had fears and anxiety and how injecting logic helped me to deal with it. Then i went to my inner child. I realized that comfort was my true core value. Thats the way i dealt with fear of being rejected and humiliated - running away from people in my comfort bubble, being alone in my room playing games all day and fitting in was just a tool to keep my comfort bubble alive. I started explaining my inner child that logic will take care of all my fears, that instead of running away from them i will be able to understand them and accept them. That i will be able to be around people without constantly feeling fears of rejection and judgement.
Then i started debunking comfort:
- Comfort doesnt provide any safety , you just end up in your room playing games all day.
- Comfort is threatening your safety, its going against your rational part and dumbs you down. Without logic you wont get anywhere.
- Comfort is not really comfortable, you are just running away from fears all the time. Logic will give you much more comfort, you will be able to handle fears and be comfortable even in very tough situations.
- You dont really enjoy comfort, but dopamine it brings. Logic will give you much more dopamine, every time you act logically you will get dopamine and feel great.
- Logic will bring you much more safety, instead of slacking you will take action and do whatever makes sense. With comfort you can end up on the streets, with logic you wont, and even if somehow you do, you get out of it very fast.
- Comfort is gonna screw up my future, its not gonna get me anywhere, i will just live the rest of my life lonely in my little bubble, while logic on the other hand will enable me to get anywhere i want, enable me to be around people and make me overcome any problem i have much easier.
When my inner child understood all that and realized that logic is not gonna be hard and uncomfortable, but its actually gonna bring me more safety and fulfillment than anything else i managed to click again.
This step is most important after the click. Building framework and resolving dissonance is crucial in order to maintain trust and not fall back. Reading real answers, listening to podcasts and debating myself a lot helped me to find answers to all the questions i had.
What i found very important is to understand that those old emotions and fears will still be there, and by understanding them and framing them in logical context is important to structure them so they stop creating dissonance. What helped me the most with social anxiety / avoidance of people , fear to talk and socialize is to put it in more mathematical framework : Its +EV to talk / socialize with people , its worth the risk of feeling rejected since by working with other people you can make much bigger difference, you develop social skills, improve your logic and rhetoric, gather information and by exposure reduce the fears that are still there and take time to rewire.
Also, putting all your actions in bigger picture is important to get a clear view of what to focus on.
Hope this helps some of you and gl with clicking!" source
"I know Logic will always appreciate me as much as I appreciate Logic"
PreClick Core Value: Validation seeking
"To start of I want to explain about me and my emotional drive in the past, as this understanding was crucial to start trusting in Logic.
I had always high expectations on myself as well as on my surroundings. Most things I would tackle with a huge amount of distrust because it had to fit my high expectations. What took a while for me to realize was that it wasn't my values that were setting those high goals. It will all make sense in a bit.
So I had those high expectations, about a girlfriend, about my job, about what I should do with my life, but also about ideas and beliefs other people would have. I would try to find flaws and problems everywhere and distrust was so present, that at some point I thought it must be my core value. But it was only part of the story. There was another component and that wouldn't want to fit into the “high expectations” approach. It was comfort. I would refrain from many pleasures just so I wouldn't have to work for it. Not because I was so modest or not greedy, but I would rather live with less than having to put extra work. In my past I tried to appreciate the simple lifestyle so I could stay in my comfort-bubble.
But how can this behavior fit into an overall very skeptical mindset with high expectations? How could one with the highest expectations stay in his comfort bubble and not work hard for his dreams. There was an important link missing. The reason why I would strive for those ambitious goals was simply because I was craving for appreciation. Nothing was good enough to get the appreciation of others, I had to outshine the rest to make sure I would get acknowledged. I wouldn't blatantly show off, but very subtle steer the attention for example in a conversation on my insights, endeavors or adventures plans. Of course this was happening on a subconscious level and I wasn't aware of it until recently. If I wouldn't be able to find a work or undertaking that could grant me appreciation from others as a reward, I wouldn't go for it, hence I would fall back on my comfort from time to time, when I figured out that the current approach wasn't working. And I tried many things and many times I had to realize it was not working.
You might know this feeling of not being able to fully commit to something. When you feel like you should just go ham and work with all your conviction on something you believe in, but it just feels half-assed all the time. That was what I experienced. And I couldn't understand why. I was picking the most honorable undertakings I could think of but I would still feel inhibited to fully commit. Why? Well, I never really wanted it or thought it was important, instead I was doing it because I was trying to get something out of it, to get peoples appreciation so I could feel better about myself. With this attitude you are not able to achieve great things. I was doing it so it was just enough. After a while I would just give up again, because I wouldn't have the endurance to push through rough times, so I would fall back on comfort.
But how could I possibly find something I would truly care for? I had to admit to myself that I didn't even know what I truly cared for. It felt like I didn't really care for anything or anyone and that was actually not too far from reality. I was mainly trying to feel good about myself and as long as that was unsatisfied, I felt unable to go further and care for anyone else.
But the approach was flawed. I had to realize that I would never feel good about myself, when making myself and my emotional integrity dependent on others and their opinion, validation, attention, approval and love. I was an addict, a social appreciation junky, everything I did came from that craving. I was trapped and even making Logic my new core value felt impossible, as I would only do it to for the same reasons.
The more I was working on understanding my life and the decisions I made, the more I could see the patterns, the dishonesty to myself, I was living an empty life in fear. If you feel like you have to proof yourself all the time to be acknowledged, you are living a life in fear of failing, being not good enough and fucking up. Doubts and distrust are strong companions. It was a hard process but once I had the full picture, I was determined to change. I was telling myself over and over again, I don't want to lie to myself anymore. I knew I could unlock so much potential and all the noise and distraction I experienced was part of my core value, thoughts how I would come across and trying to be liked by others drained so much energy and decreased overall sharpness constantly (see [/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight%20effect spotlight effect]).
The next stepping stone was learning to trust. It felt hard to fully trust something as if I was my whole life avoiding to trust or have strong beliefs. Maybe because I was scared to fully commit. What if I would figure out it was not good enough, then I would be not good enough.
But now I understood that I had to learn to trust, else I would always stay a validation addict in fear of being unworthy. I was making myself an emotional slave. I understood the need of a solid foundation of my belief system, so I wouldn't depend on others anymore.
At that point I developed already an understanding of how reality is structured in mathematical patterns or better, the structure of reality is governed by logical regularities. Humans create a concept of logic, but we can also discover in nature relations that follow those principles, precisely and consistently. We might not always understand them yet, but everything follows those cause-effect relationships.
So rationally I got that part, but how could I emotionally attach to the idea, that everything is Logic and therefor I could fully trust it and gain confidence out of it. As I said, I still had to learn to trust. I was looking into religion. I was wondering how Christians would be able to trust in something so abstract and for me surreal like God. I found [/www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx%3Farticle%3Dhow%20trusting%20god%20can%20transform%20your%20life this text] of a guy explaining how trusting god changed his life. I learned Christians just tell themselves, “God will always love you, God is good, God has the power to help you, God wants to help you and God will help you”. Isn't that fascinating? They found a way to fix the problem I also experienced, the need to feel appreciated, loved and taken care of. So if I could learn to trust in a similar way Logic, which is from my understanding in a sense my creator because it is the reason and purpose for everything there is, I would be able to get this love and appreciation from Logic instead of being dependent on the appreciation of others. So I [/pastebin.com/N4eAWh7c translated the text] to see if it would work for me. I replaced every “God”, “Lord” and even “bible” with Logic. The sentence would now say: “Logic loves you, Logic is good, Logic has the power to help you and Logic will help you”. That kinda worked. I had to explain myself more in depth why this was safe to believe (this might help: [/logicnation.org/wiki/Content%20to%20help%20you%20appreciate%20logic https://logicnation.org/wiki/Content_to_help_you_appreciate_logic]). It sounded illogical that Logic would love me at first, but I just went with it because it seemed to work on an emotional level. Again I was really desperate to understand how I could trust anything so I had no problem with going a bit far here and when I noticed it worked, that I would feel emotionally safe with the idea Logic could provide all these things for me, I went as far as saying I want to devote myself to serve Logic. It suddenly made perfectly sense to devote myself to something that I could fully trust, because it is the essence of what is, especially when realizing that I was devoting my life to be liked and appreciated by others in the past so I could feel better about myself, this now was actually something I felt comfortable doing with full commitment, because I know Logic will always appreciate me as much as I appreciate Logic. In return I will seek to understand Logic and do all that Logic demands and when I did that, I will trust in Logic, that it will take care for the rest.
I had to realize my core value and how it effected my life on a fundamental level. It was something like validation or appreciation seeking.
I had to realize the need to fully commit to something I could fully trust, which turned out to be Logic.
" I was left in tears of joy"
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"I realized I haven’t shared my experience on reddit yet, so here is how I went through it. When I clicked a month ago we didn’t have the 4 steps yet, so it was a little bit less structured for me, but here is what helped me in detail:
When I realized I was lying to myself, telling myself I was already making sense, I went to my room, turned off the lights and started thinking under my covers, I tried to go through things rationally and figure things out. After a while I started writing down my life in detail, all the moments that were important:
The first moment was when I was 12 and my best friend at time decided to spend a lot of time in a new group that I didn’t really fit in. Before I would always be in the middle of any group, always watching out for my friend so he wouldn’t get left behind, but at that moment I felt left behind and rationalized that I had to be the problem. My first reaction was to fit in with that group, but it didn’t work out for long. After that I took distance from that group, found a new best friend and we ended up isolating more from the rest. I build up an identity of being better than others to cope with the underlying feeling of low self-esteem that was caused by my friend “leaving me behind”. My emotional objective became to gain value in the eyes of others, but also for my own skeptic eyes. I became a banker and got a degree in economics, that wasn’t cutting it, I had a paradigm shift to instead of money and status (“Up in the air” helped a lot in that) have growing as a person and helping humanity move forward as my excuse to gain value. Eventually I came over to work together with Athene and that helped to strengthen that core.
I wrote all these things and more down and really thought about it; I understood rationally what my emotional motivations were but that was not enough. The next day Tim clicked a guy from Sweden that came over recently but it didn’t look like he was going to stay. The previous days he looked very insecure and his whole body language was screaming dissonance. After he clicked his whole body language changed and he became very calm. His potential went up and it was causing me a lot of dissonance because it was conflicting with my core value of gaining value.
I went in my room under my covers again that evening and started to emotionally reinforce the dissonance I was feeling. I went through my notes from the previous day and emotionally connected how I felt then to increase the feeling of anger in the beginning, which turned into sadness. When I felt really sad I imagined how logic could have helped me in all these situations that made me feel sad and after that I imagined how logic reaches out a helping hand to help me stand up again. I felt a feeling of excitement in my stomach and chest, but I was afraid of losing it, so I watched the last episode of Cosmos (2014). At the end of the episode I was left in tears of joy, inspired by and in awe of the world we live in and I stood up from my bed and went downstairs to write down my experience in detail until 7am.
Looking back, I would say my core value was comfort that was caused by low self-esteem that was caused by the feeling of being worth less than others. I used fitting in, validation from others, money, status and logic as tools to fulfill that core. Gaining value was how I emotionally framed it and the feeling of gratefulness and emotionally connecting that logic would help me the most made me go through this paradigm shift." source
"My heart started beating like hammer, I had huge chill running through my body and the endorphin rush hit my head."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hi guys, I’m 21 and from Poland, yesterday I clicked and I want to share my experience. I previously had placebo click because I didn’t approach it the right way, I thought that I can do it just with my rational part of the brain and totally ignore emotional aspect that is essential for clicking so in the end I was confronted with reality and I realized that I was lying to myself the whole time just to stay in my comfort bubble. So I started all over again.
Step 1: In order to develop trust in logic I was looking for a field of science that was really interesting to me and create the most positive emotions in me. I looked at all the materials that were recommended on logicwiki page link and the Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey was making me most emotional so I made routine to watch one episode each morning to start the day with some appreciation of logic and to not to start procrastinate from morning. Also every time I went outside instead to listen music as I always did I tried to listen to the surroundings and appreciate the nature and world around me. But that was not enough, I still couldn’t made logic appealing to my inner child in other words I didn’t feel so much positive emotions when thinking about logic. Then I read that some people find illustrating logic like mother, friend or god to be helpful. I tried with the god and it worked really well because in past I was religious person.
Step 2: to make sure that I was going to find my true core value I sat down in my room with notebook and pen, put myself in meditative state where I had clear mind and started to look for the most emotional moments in my life that I can remember and wrote it down on the paper. During this I started to feel really unpleasant because it was exposing how much harm my core value did to me. I came to conclusion that my core value was comfort that originated from validation seeking because of low self-esteem. Then I tested it to confirm that I understood everything and to confirm if it was actually the case. I had a bag of chewing gum with 20 gums in it. I had episodes of emotional eating so I was thinking: I know that I will have dissonance when I eat all of them at once and I will tell myself that this is stupid but at the same time I will feel really good on emotional level because I have comfort as a core value. I ate them all and my predictions was right so I was sure that comfort was my core value.
Step 3: It took couple of days of tries because my emotional intelligence was not so high therefore I was having hard times whenever I tried to talk to my inner child also he tried to protect current core value by reminding me of all my warm memories from past. I realized that my inner child was too attached to comfort. I took the notebook with my past memories from step 2 and I started to think how having comfort as a core value screw me my whole life and what was possible if I had logic as my core value in that painful moments. As I was doing it I started to fell more and more dissonance and sadness. Based on projection what comfort will do to me if I will keep it as a core value I started to imagine comfort as me who has cataract, bedsores, and anorexia from playing games and living in a comfort bubble all life. My inner child was holding my comfort hand and I imagined logic as god that was standing next to them and was reaching to my inner child with his helping hand. In that moment I was really at the emotional core, I felt so much dissonance and was so grossed out by my comfort that I let go of my comfort hand and stand in the middle of logic and comfort. I was scared and didn’t know if I want to adopt logic but after a second I jumped and hug logic with all my strength. My heart started beating like hammer, I had huge chill running through my body and the endorphin rush hit my head. At first I was truly happy but at the same time I was scared to lose it so I immediately started to do logical things. My head was flooded with questions so I was reading lots of logic wiki and listening to podcasts that I missed.
Right now I logically rewiring my brain and sometimes dissonance occur but I try to find logical answers to the questions that pop up in my head. The most fear I had after click is that I’m going to lose it when I wake up next day but I still have logic as a core value so I’m really happy about it. To all people that want to click I strongly advise you to make sure that you do the 4 steps on emotional level, it’s not too difficult to click but I think it’s impossible to click without going emotionally about it. Also don’t make my mistake and don’t overthink it. Most of the time it’s just your inner child that don’t want to click and you not realizing that. Hope this will help, and remember don’t give up." source
"I was trapped in the intersubjectivity : having to get a diploma, to get a job that you like and to gain money and so on... But why restrain myself like that ? Now I know that I can be far more useful to the world !"
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Feeling lost
I'm from France and I'm 23 years old. I've always been lost on my life, about my future, and I've never knew what to answer when someone would ask me : « What job do you want to aim for when you'll be older ? ».
I thought of myself as a creative person, and I thought my 'destiny' has always been to be an artist, like a filmmaker or something like that. I thought I had something to share to the world. Now I know that it's because when I was a child, when I was writing stories or some stuff like that, my parents, my family always congratulated and encouraged me to continue on this path.
So, I was lost in my studies, I tried to study cinema at university but it was not working. I really didn't know what to do. I wanted to feel useful after so many years of studying. So after that, I worked for an association that was trying to help young people, like me, to find their paths by doing social work of public interest. Like by doing weekly visits to the elderly (for fighting their isolation), or by doing ecology things. Even if it was on a very small scale, I was feeling useful for the first time of my life, and it was feeling great !
After that, I decided to study in the social work, to have a diploma in more or less two years. I wanted to continue to help people to be fulfilled. So this is what I'm doing to this day : studying all day long. But then, Athene arrive with his click thing and I began to question myself and my past choices since then.
I know Athene since 3 or 4 years, it was an interview from Zerator, a french streamer, that made me interested to him. His real talks, and « the Athene and Reese » videos already made me grasp that he was saying very smart stuff. But at that time I couldn't realize how brilliant and groundbreaking it was.
My clicking path
When the idea of click came out, I was not interested at all. I think that the moment where I began to question myself was when Athene interviewed some guy that clicked. I think it was a programmer, and I wanted what he has. Because if it was a true thing, it could change my life for the better, so maybe it was worth a shot. So I read the 4 steps, but I just couldn't do it emotionally, so I gave up right away. I thought it was just not for me.
During the last holidays, I decided to not procrastinate like I always do, by playing games or whatever, and I began to work on a story that I would maybe adapt on a video later on. I wanted to restore a connection with my « creative me ». But I noticed I couldn't write it, even if I had a lot of ideas, nothing came to my mind. I thought a lot, and I realized that there was no real purpose behind that, and that I shouldn't waste my time on doing unproductive stuff. I began to think about all my choices in my past, and I realized that it was all because I was seeing myself as someone that I was not...At that time I lose a lot of my identity, I had a urge to understand everything logically, but it was still not the click.
Now I really wanted to click, so I read again and again the wiki. I still couldn't do it emotionally, I knew that it was better for me to click, but my inner child didn't want to let go. I had a very cold idea of the click, and tought that maybe I would have miss out a lot of experiences in my life if I had logic as my core value before. But I still knew that the click was better for me ! When the New Year came, I decided to do a daily diary on video from now on. (I think it was Ricardo's advice) It helped me a lot to know exactly what was on my mind at the moment. I clicked two days later with the yo-yo technique : I imagined my past and future life with and without the click, I realized that all my bad moments in life was because I didn't have logic as a core value. And when i thought about how simple it would be to do this simple click, I just felt a great relief. I couldn't sleep after that, I couldn't help but to think of my past, and to think of what to do in the future. For the first time, I thought about leaving school to have a bigger impact. I was trapped in the intersubjectivity : having to get a diploma, to get a job that you like and to gain money and so on... But why restrain myself like that ? Now I know that I can be far more useful to the world !
What I want to do now
Now, I don't know exactly what I should do. I don't have any backup plan if I leave school, so for now I continue. I will call a clicker or someone in Athene's place. I still don't know what I should do from now on, because I dont know if I can provide for my financial stability. I wish to know what the other clickers without a diploma are doing about that. Maybe the more logical thing is to study, but if I can find a way to have money without having to study, I will think about it." source
"It was like nuclear bomb crushed in my brain, there was no useless thoughts."
PreClick Core Value: Having a goal
"Im gonna start with introducing to you guys my situation before click and how my previous core value tricked me to believe i value logic the most and that on emotional lvl i was still connected to something else.
My whole life i was more rational than emotional even before the click i was rationalizing things.When i met my GF and we got together after some time i realised that with my current mindset i won't be able to provide us good life and so on. I understood i have to change my mindset i started to think what i have to do. After short time i got into athene again i started to applying into my life what he was saying i started to make sense, i was eating healthy and exercising. My decisions were based on what made most sense for me and all this happend from one day to another and i was sure i clicked. It was 8 months ago and a lot happend, my Gf wanted to make sense as well and our relationship got even better. For me every inside was very easy to apply and to understand. I wanted to change world and help others. I even applied to join the crew but in respond they told me that i need more life experience. After this i continued self develop and helping others and my Gf to get the click. Today i msged Athene on skype and he said i didn't clicked yet. I was really confused because all the symptomes were actually there and i applied all the insides so how i didn't clicked yet? I was really wondering what i have missed but i couldn't get that. I contacted clicker on discord and i shared my "story" he said that it might be that on emotional lvl i still value love to my GF more(since all this began with getting with her). I considered this but we talked with my GF and i told her that is she would stop making sense and start draging me down we would have to brake up. So i continued thinking and i started watching the stream. I was talking to one of the viewers and even there i was responding to all his question with all the logical thinking symptomes and i couldn't wrap my head around this situation and i knew that either im really close to real click all this time or im clicked already but i cant explain it properly.
And after i was thinking about my life out of nowhere it came to my mind! Even before i met my gf i was looking for "goal" in life something that i would achieve. After i met my GF my goal changed to change the world and help people BUT ON THE EMOTIONAL LVL I WAS STILL CONNECTED THE MOST TO THIS "GOAL" THING. Thats why i was emotionaly stable because all this time i just wanted to make a difference and thats all rational thinking from the past made it easy for me to understand all insides. But at the same time my emotional part was sitting in far corner and i was not paying enough attention to it since i though i control my emotions. My core value got in line with making sense but the real click never happened.
It was like nuclear bomb crushed in my brain, there was no useless thoughts. My mind got clear i fel happy and wanted to cry in same time. Boost of energy came even my hands were shaking from excitement. First thing that came in my mind was to go and share it on discord with person that helped me and then i immidiatly msged athene.
I hope that this gonna be helpfull." source
"For the first time, i saw reality for what it was. It was truly beautiful, because it allowed me to let go of my false identity"
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hey! My name is Vera, i’m 24 and from Austria. Thanks for taking the time to check out my post! Hope it helps you out.
Recently, i made a lot of progress towards finding answers to my questions about what my true purpose is supposed to be, and how i even came about in the first place. Thanks to this development, that got supported by changes to my life in many ways the past 5 years (such as eating Vegetarian when i was 18, which led up to meditation, working out, losing a ton of weight, eating a very simple & healthy Vegan diet, and so on), i managed to open up to my emotions to a point where i could expose myself to more drastic changes.
The Real Talks, God is in the Neurons and my curiosity driven research about the world guided me along the way of this. Since i already have seen your sincerity when it comes to changing to world for the better for many years, which i also wanted to dedicate to again with full power, i figured i’d refresh all the insights from your projects and my research, and give the Selfless Click a go while keeping in mind the steps of the former one.
My previous core value
4 days ago, i finally decided to focus intensely on which events in my life had shaped my flawed sense of self, which i didn’t dare to before, because i knew there was no way back to my comfort after. I wanted to see, as an observer, on what my identity fed on to sustain itself throughout the past years so i could pull the plug on it’s life support once and for all. I was out to replace it with something that would drive me to once again help others like i did for more most of my life, regardless of my own comfort being impaired for it. (i volunteered for different causes, like charity activism, helping in an animal shelter, and some smaller selfless activities).
I was able to withstand a lot of pressure from my environment because i had a purpose at that time, and i was driven to fulfill it. With that, i also fulfilled myself. It also felt like i had an underlying love for everything, and high awareness that kept me focused on doing what had to be done.
However, when i was put into high school, i eventually was at a point where i had to only direct my attention to school during the last years. As i felt less and less useful, and stuck in a bad dream, i began distracting myself with food and games because of it. I became very vulnerable to the constant BS the people in my class tried to wear me, and a couple of others, down with. Even drawing and writing about my thoughts couldn’t keep me anchored to my previous state of awareness anymore, and i caved in. I started to believe i was a victim to try to justify what had happened to me, and ended up strengthening this identity intensely by doing what i could to distance myself from people altogether. Isolation combined with nonstop gaming became my way out of what i didn’t want to accept: reality.
My health decreased immensely, while my delusions took control over me more and more, up until i point where i had suffered so much that i couldn’t bear the dissonance that had started to build up anymore, neither physically nor psychologically.
My experience with the Selfless Click
Because i still had some awareness left in me to work with, which had caused intense dissonance, I managed to get fed up a lot by how i just surrendered to this false sense of self. It made feel completely void of purpose. The energy from my built up frustration initiated change when my mom poked my flabby belly, after which i realized right then and there that i really had to start losing weight to get healthy and energetic again. I lost all the excess weight, which had fueled my transformation towards gaining purpose again. It made it clear to me that i was still capable of true change, if i just surrendered to what made sense, even if it was painful at first.
I started to research all the most important topics i could think of, like biology, politics, science in general, philosophy, and so on, so i would have a good amount of knowledge i could use to speed up my progress. Also, i forced myself to look at the misery going on in the world, for people and animals alike, to get a perspective on just how good i had it, and why i should do something about it. I started to connect the dots, which led to what i had mentioned at the start, on top of moving to Germany to help out my best friend, who lived in a very humbling Students Home, which also taught me a lot about life.
When i got back home, i took the info from God is in the Neurons, and translated it into a little practice. Everyday i walked my dads dog, i greeted everyone that came by, no matter how awkward! Also, i did my workouts outside, to expose myself even more to people, so i could train my brain to go easy on the fears.
Eventually, i got more and more in touch with my awareness again, which sped up everything immensely, as i could adopt info without having emotional attachments towards my ideas, because i put a chance of them being wrong from the start. This way, i learned much quicker, and could analyze my behaviours honestly, so that i could improve on them where possible without fighting it.
My dissonance eased up on me greatly, but i still had way too much anxiety left in me, which blocked me from being truly productive. I noticed this, and decided to start counteracting it with selfless action by giving away almost all of my clothes, alongside old toys and books from my childhood to moms & kids who needed it in my town. By doing this, i exposed my false sense of self clearly to my awareness again, because i was in one moment scared to go there because there were so many people, yet i did it anyways, and when i stood there giving away my stuff, i lost all of my social anxiety all at once for the remainder of my time there. The BS was strong.
As i reflected on all of these situations, i realized how the biggest impact i had on the world, and the fulfillment that came with it, materialized itself into reality everytime i was being consistent in aligning myself with it. I was given pointers towards it in so many ways, and whenever i chose to go the right way, i got rewarded with peace, and when i went against it, i was destined to find the right way through dissonance, which led to taking action.
For the first time, i saw reality for what it was. It was truly beautiful, because it allowed me to let go of my false identity, as i just accepted that i could trust fully in Logic, and the ways it expressed itself in. Everytime i gave into glimpses of it's guidance, i felt alive, and knew i did the right thing with the knowledge i had at that time. I also really appreciated how i had the ability of having experience, which was there as a sort of of photo album i could look into for information, but not for my sense of self. It wasn't about me all along, but about evolving my species through selfless actions, which was incredibly liberating, and it made me feel in harmony with the Universe itself. My body felt intensely alive and i cried with a smile on my face. I was truly at peace.
Since i let go and replaced my old care value with Logic, I have been free from my deluded anxiety, and also have upped my productivity to levels i haven’t reached for years. I have barely any mind chatter, i feel peaceful, and creativity flows out of me much easier, as i reactivated a sense of childlike play and curiosity. Even my family noticed this shift in me.
Thank you guys for putting out your ideas out there, and for having made a huge positive impact on my and others lives because of it :’)
With all this said, i hope i could provide some useful info so you can go and click too! The world needs you, so don't wait, go ahead and do it! <3" source
"My experience is not worth all the suffering in the world. And I can do something about it."
PreClick Core Value:
Cassy here (20 y/o, crewmember since August'16) with a female testimony of how I was finally able to at least relate to this whole clicking stuff and how I started valuing doing the right thing (connected with logic), doing good, or whatever you want to call it.
The selfish route of clicking to logic never appealed to me nor worked. I was in a pretty good spot to click actually, apparently, because my core value was very weak already. I came from a very low self-esteem angle and therefore always "valued" other people's well-being. Just for the wrong reasons, of course. I regularly watch documentaries about war, crimes, violence etc., of people who have it "worse" than me, to remind my self, how good I have it and have fortunate I am to be in this privileged position. I tried to connect positive emotions to logic but it didn't really work. I just couldn't care enough about logic. Especially seeing many people coming over and calling themselves "clickers", but actually doing less than me.
When the 24/7 athenecrew stream stopped, I realized how people did not really care about spreading this mindset or their impact. Which translated to me definitely not wanting to adopt that mindset. Because in my opinion I was having more impact than all these "clickers" - obviously for the wrong reasons, but at the end of the day the food didn't care if it was made for selfish reasons, from somebody that hated doing it or from somebody that like doing it. (And this is obviously just one practical example.) I was doing just slightly more than the “clickers” who came over, to feel better about myself.
I didn't see a difference between myself and a clicker – except for that they call themselves “clickers”. The point is, that almost nobody really had logic as their core value, they were still to a bigger or lesser degree slacking, except for a few. I never really understood what Athene meant and what I experienced in this environment felt as nothing worth or “noble” achieving to me. The problem is I pinged to the bigger group that bullshitted themselves. I didn't ping to the few, that actually did something, because I thought they were just different, I had respect for them and thought that I would never be able to be like them. People here actually mentioned this to me quite often, that they had the feeling, that I was looking down on myself. I always disagreed, because compared to the “fake clickers” I had nothing to feel bad about myself at all. Compared to those, who actually tried to make a difference however, I obviously did. But I thought that I was trying and I was learning to be more rational and to understand my actions and emotions. But that wasn't enough. I have know realized, that everybody actually can make a difference, even if your doubting your potential. I have learned and grown so much here and started believing in myself, but before I still always needed a little push to make me do things myself and not rely on others. With the right mindset, you can do anything, no matter how much experience you have. It is not about this experience, that's just a tool. What really matters is if you want to make a difference or not. If you want to be a murderer or not.
The selfless click
When Athene started talking about the more emotional, selfless click, and about people dying, it got really close to me and finally I could relate to it, I understood what he means with logic. I always knew, that I was a hypocrite, that I was just bullshitting myself. I even admitted openly that there was always room or optimization. I was just lazy. I also knew that people are dying, it wasn't about not having the knowledge. Not only dying, suffering, getting tortured, also just having a shitty life in general. I come from a very very privileged family. I KNEW I could do more. I always plead my parents to do more - but without doing more myself though, what a hypocrite. Because I considered myself already being better than them as I was a vegan. I cared about animals. But I ignored my own species.
What hit me was when Athene mentioned gamingforgood. He said gamingforgood has so far not been as successful as it could have been; not because it was a bad idea, but because people didn't care enough. And it's true. First he said it was the coders - and idiotic me obviously instantly thought "ah ye, it was the coders, not me, I tried" to feel better about myself. But no. It was also the recruiters, and everybody else, including me. Every single person was involved. Gamingforgood could have already raised millions. MILLIONS. We could have saved kids. Literally. Children would not have died cruelly. Those children that you see in [/www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DmqPpqzSLzrA this] video about the bombings in Syria. I could have saved them. I cannot emphasize this enough. I was part of it. And I'm also the reason it failed. Because I didn't care enough. No matter how much I backwards rationalize that I was working a lot back then, putting it into perspective, I wasn't at all. I could have done way more and I could have done it for the right reasons. If I had had the right mindset I would have done more. I would have made others do more. But i just wanted to be lazy. My laziness cost lives. I'm a murderer.
Hearing Athene talking about this and binge-watching videos and photos about these events made me realize that it's not about my experience, my experience is not worth all the suffering in the world. And I can do something about it. When I was younger, I wanted to make the world a better place, I wanted to do what's right, I wanted to help. But I got confused and I gave up. Now I realize that the only thing that was stopping me was a lack of knowledge. I didn't understand what I truly am and I was subject to indoctrination and social conditioning that experience is way more valuable - but it is actually not. And then it was just this imaginary attachment that was holding me back from being able to make a big impact in the world.
Here's some points that might help you realize it:
- inform yourself about what's happening in the world. what is REALLY happening - and I don't mean the next episode of 'Big Brother' or some shit like that
- realize (I did that earlier already) that feeling worthless and being "depressed" is idiotic. it makes no sense. You are just feeding the victim mindset and you are bullshitting yourself because actually you have a good life.
- realize how good of a life you have. put it into perspective. literally have this image of a dying kid in your head all the time. Or of piles of corpses in Auschwitz. Or of journalists getting beheaded by ISIS. People starving right now in Yemen. Whatever you want, there is an abundance of atrocities in the world you can chose from
- know it could hit you. Imagine it. and if you don't care about yourself. imagine it hits your mother. or father, whoever you're closest to. but truly feel it. truly see how much you would suffer and how unfair you would think the world is.
- If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I never really understood that sentence. I mean I rationally understood it, but I didn't truly get it. Seeing how much luxury I own - I already knew this, despite living more minimalistically to make me feel a little less bad for it - and how much suffering it causes. Your expensive car needs oil. This oil is what kills Iraqis. They drive with bulldozers over their homes while people are still sleeping in there. They have nowhere to go. Just because of oil and land and gold and other fucking pointless useless worthless goods. Because we privileged people want it. And we don't care where it comes from.
- As a side note: don't you dare saying "i donated to charity, i did my part". You can do more. You are in the best position to do so. You don't have to struggle for your own survival. You don't have to hide in the basement in fear of getting bombed to death.
- Realize that all these little things you do are only to feel better about yourself and not because you truly care. How many little things you might do, it is never enough. "But I buy organic food so I do my part." not enough. "i get palm oil from sustainable sources". not enough. even if you "optimize" all your consumption. you are still killing people. because you are not doing anything against it. there is genocides. there is beheadings. there was in the past and there still is right this moment! in auschwitz people were also just standing there, watching, taking pictures and seeing people die. THEY JUST WATCHED THEM DIE. - thinking “no worries, I will share an emotional pic of a cute cat later”, 1 like, 1 prayer ---- but first, let me take a #selfie of this gaschamber - and you are now doing exactly the same thing.
- Also, put your helping into perspective. Nowadays you don't have to risk your safety. Back in World War II you had to risk your life to help a jew. But today you don't even have to sacrifice your own health. You don't have to risk your well-being. Heck you don't even have to think about your own survival at all! If you truly make the jump to a selfless click and decide to come over to work with us, everything will be taken care of. You don't have to worry about having enough food to eat for yourself. If you decide to take care of others, others will take care of you.
- Most importantly: There is no forgetting this knowledge. There is no going back now anymore. If you don't change now, more will die. And it will haunt you for the rest of your life. And you deserve it. If you wish death upon innocents and don't care about the world, you deserve all the suffering and depression possible.
This approach may be easier for girls, as they tend to have higher emotional intelligence. At least for me it was the case, as described. But there is a caring part in every person; I believe that everybody is truly good in their core – or at least was at a certain point. I was never interested in science – and trust me, I'm still not. Unless it's needed, you will not see me learn anything about quantum physics. Everything is probabilistic, I got that part, but about all the kinds of different atoms and shit – no thanks, no reason to do so. Unless it practically saves a life. So all this logic “wishy-washy” (as I like to call it, because it didn't really emotionally explain anything to me) from before didn't make me connect to this mindset and truly understand. For me, it is very easy though to feel for others; mirror neurons. When I see something sad, I can literally feel it and I almost start crying. Even when I don't see a picture, somebody describing it to me is enough. I don't want anybody to suffer. I love the world. I love every single child and every adult. They are part of humanity, I am part of humanity. People are dying and I can do something about it. And you can, too.
If anything is unclear or you need further guidance, check out our [/www.reddit.com/r/Makingsense subreddit], [/logicnation.org/Main%20Page wiki] or come to our [/discordapp.com/invite/NYX25Ab discord]." source
"Since then I got rid of the bad habits again that crawled back into my life after unclicking, I am getting enough sleep, fixing my sleep schedule, taking better care of eating..."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Note: This post is very long, but it also describes quite a long process and gives plenty of examples. Explaining the process of unclicking/reclicking is quite hard for me, so if anything is unclear or if you want a more detailed explanation, feel free to ask, I will gladly answer. I saw a couple of people on this subreddit asking for more detailed posts, so here you go, I hope it helps. If you are in a similar situation and you think that I could help you with clicking/reclicking you can always send me a message on reddit.
Hi, I'm 20 years old, from Germany. I listened to the real talk for the past year, so I already had quite some insights to begin with and also already knew my core value: Comfort. I had some detailed talks with a good friend a few years ago about how I sometimes behaved (in school) and where that came from, which resulted in me thinking and talking a lot about my childhood. Because of that and insights from the real talk I basically already had step 2 done.
Some background about that: When I was still very young, I encountered a lot of things that I didn't understand. I didn't understand why I was friends with someone in kindergarten who bullied me sometimes. I didn't understand why my father would yell at me and not let me play video games even though that was what I enjoyed doing the most. The point is: I didn't understand the world around me and there was no one to explain it to me, everything just felt unfair. It didn't make sense to me that the world was so cruel, that there's wars and people hurting each other. All of that resulted in me wanting to flee from that reality, so I developed a craving for video games and fantasy books, because I was able to understand those worlds and they gave me a chance to escape my cruel reality. Another main thing about my comfort core value was procrastination: I was a master at procrastinating, and I started hating that more and more, especially in the past year, because I actually had to get things done since I finished school. Still, I procrastinated.
Mainly because of that I already had a lot of dissonance towards my comfort core value because I kept wasting a LOT of time. One main thing that always bothered me a lot was that I used to play wow before going to bed, which almost always resulted in me going to bed far too late, not getting enough sleep, having a fucked up sleep schedule and so on. I hated it, but I still did it and I couldn't change, not permanently at least. I was sometimes able to go about my day quite structured and logically, getting a lot of things done. At the end of the day though when I was a lot less concentrated, I just fell back on procrastinating, which resulted in playing wow. And if I didn't play wow, I watched shitty youtube videos, tv series or similar stuff. So I already had my comfort core value loaded with a lot of dissonance. I hadn't been listening to real talk for a while, but on October 16th I got back into it by listening to the twitch VoD of October 9th. That one really triggered something for me and the following days I was a lot more aware about my dissonance towards comfort and I wanted it to change. I listened to a lot of real talk and also listened to the ones about clicking that were available at that time. I thought a lot about the insights and stayed up longer on Tuesday night (October 18th), listening to real talk while playing wow. Playing wow caused insane dissonance at that point and I just quit, fully focusing on the real talk. When I went to bed, I couldn't fall asleep for almost an hour. I felt as anxious as almost never before in my life, I felt a lot of fear. I think that was the point where my comfort core value basically realised that it was close to dying. What also helped a lot was understanding that I would be able to get rid of all of my bullshit with logic as my core value instead of comfort. I told myself that logic would fix all my problems and I welcomed it with open arms, I embraced it.
When I woke up on Wednesday I only got ~4 hours of sleep due to having an appointment at a doctor at 11am. Still, I felt a clarity I had never felt before and I was really concentrated. All of the noise and bullshit around me was gone and I realised that I must've made the click, although it was hard for me to say when exactly it happened. When I got into the car to drive to the doctor, I didn't even want to listen to music while driving (I used to always listen to music while driving). I rather wanted to just drive without music because it seemed like noise to me, disturbing the calmness that I had in my mind. I didn't feel any social anxiety anymore and also felt a lot more confident. Throughout the day and also the following day (Thursday), I felt really euphoric, literally jumping around because, well, everything just made sense. I finally managed to get rid of all of my bullshit that I was working on getting rid of for the past years.
I was even more amazed on Thursday evening when I streamed, because I was able to play a lot better than usually in Warcraft III, resulting in a 9:1 score. I won games against opponents that I would've usually lost against. In general I was as concentrated as never before while streaming, having an easy time to keep almost all of the things about the game in mind, while answering questions in the chat, etc. I also thought only in solutions, whereas before I used to always focus on the problems a lot. For example when I lost a unit in Warcraft III due to an unnecessary mistake, I often times thought about it for minutes, thinking about the if's, would have's and could have's and lost the game because of not focusing on what was actually going on. After the click, when something like that happened, I just looked at what was going on in the game right now and made the best out of it. I didn't keep myself busy with the past.
Unclicking: The weeks before the click I already had a lack of sleep and a messed up sleep schedule. That got even worse in the days after the click because I went to bed late. I just couldn't go to bed early and instead kept working on things that were on my list. When I then finally went to bed, I still couldn't fall asleep for a long time. Even though I was really tired, I just couldn't fall asleep. My brain was on fire and it didn't stop racing, constantly busy with rewiring all the bullshit of my past. I then couldn't get much sleep at all because I still had to wake up at a certain time because of my environment. Additionally to the lack of sleep came some dissonance that I had because of certain interactions with my environment. Example: I used to always watch a tv series with my brother while we were eating something after working out together. After the click I absolutely didn't feel like watching that tv series anymore because it was just a waste of time to me. I told him that I don't want to watch it anymore and he was like "Oh do you really have to bring it so far?!" and he was pretty pissed. I thought that it didn't make sense that if I had logic as my core value, that I would get into a position where he would still react like that. Afterwards I realised that I told him that in a bad way and I could've gone about that conversation in a better way in order to not make him upset. The point here is that I experienced a lot of dissonance because I felt like the way that I went about that conversation was worse than how I could've gone about it. This example might only seem like a small thing, and it is, but it resulted in quite some dissonance that I was actually able to work out after a few minutes. So the dissonance was gone, but the doubt wasn't. Those kind of situations that caused dissonance for me started to create doubt towards the legitimacy of my click. Even though I was quite sure that I really clicked, I still doubted it because of those kind of situations. The lack of sleep also brought up some doubt. "Why would I get into a situation where I'm sleep-deprived even though I have logic as my core value? That doesn't make sense." So the doubt started spreading more and more and I also got less and less concentrated because of the lack of sleep. Then it got even worse. Relatives from Italy visited for 1 week and they were staying at our place. I still needed to be compatible with my environment, so I basically played my role to stay compatible. That resulted in a week of a lot of bullshit. Let's just say that I was always quite a bit different with how I wanted to spend my time compared to my family/relatives (that was especially the case after the click). There were situations that caused insane dissonance for me and I didn't have the time + space to work it out. I was basically busy the whole week long, going for a lot of trips, etc. That also got me in a position where I couldn't work out, which was always very important for my concentration/sharpness. Short summary: The combination of lack of sleep and not working out caused me to be a lot less concentrated. Multiple dissonance-inducing situations also caused me to doubt the legitimacy of my click. All that spiraled out of control and I just felt like I lost the click overtime and I was back to my old comfort core value again, because there were too many things that didn't seem to make sense.
Reclicking: After unclicking and my relatives leaving again, I was in a pretty bad shape. sleep-deprived + fucked up sleep schedule, not working out, accepting that I unclicked and not having the concentration/mental capacity to think properly about it. I started watching tv series again, wasting time and just feeling bad about myself. I couldn't even work out anymore, even until now because I had an accident the day before my relatives left. I injured one of my ribs which made it impossible to work out properly. Working out was always the main thing that helped me a lot with concentration and just well-being + confidence overall. Not having it made me feel especially bad. I went into a ~2 week phase where I just felt depressed. I was okay with comfort before clicking. Before the click comfort was still acceptable, but now I had something to compare it to. The difference between my comfort-self and my logic-self was tremendous and I just wanted the logic-self back, it felt so much more fulfilling, it was just better in every single way. All that caused me to be really sad, I didn't feel like doing anything. Everything just felt meaningless with comfort as a core value. I actually got deeper and deeper into that kind of depressive state because I wanted to create as much dissonance as possible towards comfort. During the whole time of my relatives visiting and those 2 weeks where I felt bad, my main goal was reclicking. What I cared about the most during all that "unclicked time", was to reclick. So to a certain extent I think I kind of forced that sadness onto myself to create more dissonance because I reworked the 4 steps as much as possible, but it didn't do enough for the reclick.
On Thursday (November 17th) I listened to the real talk VoD of November 7th (first 30mins), the one where Athene talks about the differences of objective, intersubjective and subjective reality. Something in that talk gave me the right trigger and I felt euphoric again, I finally reclicked. It didn't feel nearly as powerful as the initial click, but it was very relieving, I didn't have to feel bad anymore. Since then I got rid of the bad habits again that crawled back into my life after unclicking, I am getting enough sleep, fixing my sleep schedule, taking better care of eating (was pretty sloppy with that during the unclicked phase) and restructuring a lot of things. Most importantly, I am doing my best at resolving all the dissonance that I experience to make sure that I don't unclick again. Basically my main focus right now is to stay clicked.
Conclusion/Thoughts: While being in the unclicked state, I didn't entirely fall back to my old self that I was before the click. Instead it was like a mix of logic + my old comfort. Unclicking didn't make me lose all the benefits of the click. I still had no identity-related feelings, I still thought a lot more in solutions rather than in problems, I still went about things more effectively, and so on. I'm not even sure if I even really fell back to having comfort as a core value. It felt more like my new logic core value got immensely cluttered by remnants of the past up until the point where I just couldn't see through all the clutter anymore and thus lost myself in it.
Metaphorically speaking I was surrounded by so much garbage that I couldn't see through it anymore. At the same time I still had some valuable things in my pockets (remnants of the click: no more identity, more solution-oriented thinking, ...) and I still knew where I wanted to go: Get out of this maze of garbage and find my logic core value again.
One of the most important things I learned through my reclicking journey is this: Do. Not. Give. Up. You can do it, you just need to find the path. If you feel bad about yourself use that as a tool if possible. In the end you need to find your own way to having logic as your core value, and that can be hard and you might feel like shit on the way, but it will all be worth it.
Adopting Logic as my core value was the best thing that ever happened to me." source
"Before the click I was suffering from pretty severe social anxiety"
PreClick Core Value: Validation
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Social anxiety,
"I'm 22 years old from Finland. I've been listening to realtalk for about a week now and constantly trying to figure out what my core value is. Then suddenly I clicked during the stream when athene started talking about how you're just an empty shell, seeking validation from others and not really thinking for yourself. Heart and hands started shaking and I had to take a breather. The feeling continued for a couple of minutes until I calmed down abit. My mind feels completly at ease right now. Just need to reinforce my belief in logic now, since some ideas still makes me experience dissonance." source
"Did the click fix social anxiety? Before the click I was suffering from pretty severe social anxiety. Today I did something that I feared before the click. I walked into a room full of people and asked a question. Before my heart would start racing and I would get a red face and start sweating. My voice would tremble and so on. This was because of social anxiety. I was constantly thinking about what other people thought about me. When I adopted logic as my core value, I understood the cause of this, a flawed core value. Low selfesteem because of contant validation seeking and trying to fit in. So now what did happen? I assumed that everything wouldn't be gone instantly, since it would take time to adjust and figure everything out. This was correct, I walked in asked the question and felt my face starting to heat up, I understood the cause and because of that I didn't feel any other symptoms. My voice was steady, no increase in heartbeat rate and no real sweating. This makes me believe that the click can really fix anxiety problems, as long as you know the underlying cause. I believe social anxiety symptoms can even completly vanish in the future." source
"It was rewarding for the first time in my life to clean my room"
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"I am from Germany and I recently turned 17 years old.
The first day when I heard about all this stuff was when Athene uploaded the video "Logic Nation" and it popped up in my feed. I was really believing into this before the click, as I watched most of Athene's videos from the beginning and trusted him, I thought this could not be a scam.
After watching the stream for 5+ hours straight and finding out more about the click here on the subreddit, I really tried the steps, I really wanted it to happen as I was a logical person on the rational part of my brain all the time. I like maths, science, computer science etc. so I did not have a hard time with loving Logic in Step 1.
In the next Step, I eventually found out that my core value was Comfort, playing WoW and Counter Strike all day, having that dream of writing games and apps (which I was doing as well, but most of the time I played games and wasted time). This is a crucial Step towards replacing the core value with Logic.
After having done Step 3 of turning Comfort into something negative, I eventually reached the Paradigm Shift. I kept looking at objects in my room with wide open eyes, seeing the beauty in everything and feeling happy and extremely curious. I literally kept looking at diecast cars (is this the right term? Basically small cars of plastic / metal) in my room and tried to grasp the science behind it. It was really crazy and awesome at the same time.
This happened after watching the stream and videos for too long, as well as reading through reddit posts. It was very late in the evening, so I decided to sleep. My thoughts were still there a lot, but I had no real problems falling asleep.
Now in the next morning, I was confused. I almost forgot about all the Logic stuff. I did not feel "enlightened" or anything. Just after a few hours, it came back into my mind and I opened up youtube and the stream again, as I figured something must be wrong, this is not it. Did I really have "the click"? I found out the third Step would take me quite a while. I had a call with Rex who was pushing me into the right direction, saying I should eventually have a call with Athene. So I asked in the Twitch Chat whether he could help me make the click, and he responded very fast with yes. I recorded it if it is valuable to anyone. However, he cleared up my questions about Step 3, I just did not understand how to make Comfort a negative emotion. After I understood that and took some time for myself watching the stream, meditating to classical music (wtf? I've never done that before in my life lol), and eventually ....
.... nothing happened.
I just went to Cs: Go with friends of mine who were asking and pushing me all day. "Where have you been?" "We were waiting all day!"
I told them about the click and Logic (which was a mistake! Do not tell friends and family too early, they will think you are crazy!) and they first started laughing and did not take it seriously. I still kept holding on to the concept of clicking, not caring about what they were saying. And suddenly, after playing a few rounds (a matter of minutes), I felt dissonance. It was so weird, I can only identify it now as dissonance. At that point, I was just confused as I thought I did not make the click. It was a warm, unconvenient, almost a bit hurting feeling in my stomach that told me I was doing the wrong thing and wasting time. I basically had an urge to do something else. Unfortunately I played the game until the end and opened up the stream again afterwards.
Lying in my bed, I had a deep conversation with a friend of mine via mobile who played the round of Cs: Go with me earlier that day. I tried explaining the click to him, how it will affect and change the world, the benefits of it. But he did not quite understand. We had two different perspectives and two different levels of knowledge about this stuff, so I told him after an hour or two that it would not make any sense and he should watch the video and invest time himself to understand the click. We went both to sleep, but I just could not. I felt so much happiness, such an urge to spread the click all of a sudden, that I went to the subreddit and answered questions. My thoughts were spinning in my head like crazy, thinking about all kinds of questions. Thinking about how I would have gone through life if I had Logic as my core value since the start, as well as about life itself right now. I stayed in bed and tried to sleep, telling myself "I need rest. I need rest. I need rest.", but it would just not work, even if it seemed logical to rest. I felt like I could really think for the first time, but it was not in my control. It was probably because the click was fresh and new. So many thoughts spinning in my head like crazy. ... I eventually stayed awake the whole night, and in the next morning, even though I felt tired and a bit loss of sleep, it was not like normal. I immediately wanted to do logical things like crazy. How I felt was different, also how I behaved. That day (which is today, the day when I posted this) I watched documentaries all day, had an urge to spread it, an urge to learn, an urge to understand everything, how life works from the very smallest bit to the largest bit, quantum mechanics, neuroscience and more. My parents needed help cleaning the house, so I figured it was the most logical thing to do, as resisting would cause only trouble and would be illogical. If I support my parents, it will be done faster, and the house is clean. While cleaning, I had a big urge of reorganizing my environment. I really wanted to throw away unnecessary stuff that I never really noticed in my room, but it was there. Like some Star Wars figures, weird decoration that did not really fit in here and were useless etc. I really felt happy about it, I organized lots of documents and so on, it was rewarding for the first time in my life to clean my room. As I have an urge to restructure my life and my environment, I do need to take some time for myself and figure things out. However, it could be useful to someone who has questions to have a talk if I find time, you can add me on Skype. I am really curious where this will be going in the future, also how much I will change, or if I will fall back to my old patterns and core value (which I highly doubt). Please do not be disappointed if I do not find myself in a state to have a call with you, as this is new to me and I am restructuring my life. If you've made it down here, you're a hero! Tell me what you think!" source
"I feel like I did the click late in the evening, or maybe even before that, but in the evening I felt so strong and an urge to spread it and understand everything, it was crazy. It is still like that in the morning today, so I guess I finally clicked and I am so happy. However, this night I think I did not sleep at all. All the thoughts and questions and answers just spinned in my head like crazy. I was so happy at the same time, but I told myself that it is logical to get sleep and rest to be effective and functioning the next day. I kept saying that to myself "I need rest. I need rest. I need rest." and really tried. But the last time I looked at the clock it was 5 a.m., after that I do not even know if I slept or were awake, it was weird. I eventually stood up/woke up at 12 a.m. Do you guys also experience less sleep or problems, or is it only like that the first night? I felt like my head exploded all night it was so weird if I think about it. That evening I wanted to even set an alarm clock to wake up early and help to spread everything, what I never ever did before during school vacation, it must have been the click. But after my thoughts spinning all around, I figured I just needed sleep and put the alarm clock off. I did not sleep anyway, so, yeah.. Tell me what you guys think. I am afraid to not get any sleep." source
"It was a huge relief because suddenly all my fears, anxieties were gone, and the past that I was carrying behind me aswell"
Country: Czech republic
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Social anxiety,
"Hey there, Im 19 years old guy from Czech republic and I want to share with you something from my past (before I clicked) and my present after I clicked. For my whole life I had a social anxiety, I feared of open conversation and the last relationship that went to hell left me pretty emotionaly unstable so I also carried many bad emotions as a burden day and day out and I was living under constant stress. So you can assume that I am a introvert type of person. As Athene came with the whole ''Making Sense'' thing I tried to adapt it and use it as a tool to overcome my fears, social anxiety and I even tried to ''switch'' from introvert to extrovert.
I have to say that this whole proccess lasted like a week although I was really dedicated, but after the week it just faded. And now I know that it was because of I rationally wanted to change, but since my Core value was comfort, on the emotional level I did not change anything. So after that I was going with my ''core comfort value'' deeper and deeper. I played PC games 24/7, and if I didnt I was just wasting time scrolling thru facebook and laughed about stupid memes.
Yesterday, I found Athene's newest video Logic Nation. I watched it as I came bored from the school and I was like ''whoah, maybe this is the thing that I didnt had the last time I tried to change'' because it answered some questions that I had the last time. I tried to elaborate and reflect on it for few hours, then went to sleep. Next day when I woke up, the first thing that I thinked about was how I can do logic things thru out the day and how Am I supposed to see logic behind everything, I was really confused about it and ofcourse it caused even more dissonance that I had before ( since I wanted to change my life rationaly, on emotionaly). I tried to ask some questions on Athene's stream but unfortunately I did not get answer) so I started going thru the subreddit and found a post from user with nickname Re-x.I contacted this guy on Skype and we talked about everything that I didnt had answer for (Thanks again If you are reading this :D ) and after that, I knew it is completely on me. I knew, that emotionaly I still desire comfort and that comfort is my core value, so the step 2 was done for me instantly. Step one was I think the hardest one because even after the conversation, I haven't seen logic under everything, but after a walk in woods and really deep thinking (also watching some videos) I made the sense of Step one and now I know that I believe in Logic as whole.So with the step two already done, after quite some time of self reflecting and convincing myself that the Comfort core value is bad, wrong and doesnt gives me any safety rather than ''decaying me from inside'' I was able to let go, and it was a huge relief because suddenly all my fears, anxieties were gone, and the past that I was carrying behind me aswell. I felt immense joy and from nothing I was driven to understand things. I also felt desire to know more about quantum mechanics, more about the world in general and more. Anyway now I know that I have to feed the new core value and that I need to keep going to fully make sense out of everything." source
Name: Internetz-User (Salthene on twitch/discord)
"I was using logic just as a tool."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"I am 20 years old now and i was following athene through all the real talk I also helped with several projects. Like supporting G4G or posting a lot of tweets to spread awareness about net neutrality but I was still procrastinating a lot because i was using logic just as a tool.
So when i realized what the click was the only thing i wanted is to get it. I watched the stream and the logic nation video. When I finished the video and i understood the steps i needed to go sleep while i was trying to sleep I was searching for what drove me.
Fitting in and comfort were the values i tought about most but i came to the conclusion that my core value was comfort because I was gaming a lot and watching useless videos so I did step 4 and shed negative light on it I imagined myself for example how I could be the first one on the leaderboard of G4G and what kind of impact that could've made.
That's when I made the click before that I was really tired (like i would fall to the ground if i dont lay down tired) But after the click my heart was beating so fast and i felt the rush it was really hard to sleep, I was also thinking a lot. The coming days i was not once procrastinating with gaming or watching videos i just wanted to do the most logical thing for every decision, like working out or eating healthy." source
"This is a new revoulotion."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hey guys I'm 17 and I just had 2 calls with Athene. First call I wanted to make the click really badly but questions like why trust logic?, My enviroment is comfortable and my core value is comfort why change it? After the first call Athene answered my questions and everything else just dissappeared. All the questions I had and all the dissonance and noice in my head questioning myself stopped. I felt a burst of happiness and my stomach felt good also my heart was beating really fast. I realized that being comfortable is bad in the long run but also making my emotional part of my brain think that comfort is something negative, for example i sit on my pc all day and go to school. Now I realize how all of that is useless and I just got to make sense cause that's what I always wanted. When u make the click u will realize that you always wanted to make sense on your rational part of your brain but now your emotional part also wants it and it feels fucking awesome.
If you doubt anything I said u will just lose out. This will spread like crazy and Athene was right with saying he has to go in the dark. This is a new revoulotion. If u want to hear the calls go to Athenes vod this stream. I'm the rex guy(rezxe in the chat) and I'm from Sweden. After first call Athene called me again and I explained how I felt. If u guys have any questions or need help to make the click I'm happy to help out, I just want to spread this so badly.
A thing I took away from the video although I already clicked was that it's important to strengthen your neural pathways that makes sense and feed your faith in logic. Otherwise you might fall back to old habbits and you will experience a lot of dissonance. You strengthen the neural pathways by keep doing stuff that makes sense. For example I instantly went and spread my experience here on reddit since it makes sense to help others click aswell. Also I feel the urge to work out instead of sitting on my ass doing jack shit. I feel like I can do my school homework easy now since I know why I do it, I have a purpose. Eating healthy aswell, it just makes fucking sense. Every decision I make now fundamentally makes sense and since my emotional core is logic I'm in the present. I will just keep this flow going and if I find myself in a situation where I experience anxiety in the future, I will just face it with logic, does it make sense to experience social anxiety? No, so I intercept the emotion and reframe it by trusting in logic. It truly is beautiful." source
"Even if I still cant explain certain things, could be gravity, I know for sure, that logic have the answer"
PreClick Core Value:
"For the past 2 months I've listened to all the real talks, and it changed a lot of my behaviours - I became vegetarian, worked out regularly, didn't waste money on dumb shit and so on. But it was not all good. In my free time, I could still catch myself watching TV or whatever, in the need for entertainment, and 2 days ago I was in a bad mood, when I turned on Athenes stream, and he was showing the video 'Logic Nation'. It made me click, which resulted in the release of dopamine, and I had to do logical things. First off I reinstalled my PC and deleted all bullshit from my phone - having it didn't make sense anymore, so it caused so much dissonance. I've read about neuropsychology and quantum mechanics enough to really trust in logic - even if I still cant explain certain things, could be gravity, I know for sure, that logic have the answer even through it has not yet been proven by out limited knowledge Also meditating on my past experiences which was guided by my previous core value really helped trusting logic a lot. I always wanted to fit in, and learning that it is logic because of evolution and neuroscience really meant a lot. Another thing that helped me a lot is talking about these things to whoever wants to listen. I even recorded myself explaining things, just to structure my thoughts" Source
"I faced fears like every few moments with staggering ease, and started thinking up solutions..."
Country: south africa(?)
PreClick Core Value: Perfection
"Recovering from drug induced psychosis and anxiety and depression, started using drugs when I was 18, broke my reward center and what else, took LSD with a broken reward system and experienced my identity dissapear, this was fuel to a fire that raged through my life for 2 years after that and nearly destroyed my future. The past two months my reward center has been recovering rapidly with medication, recently only antidepressants and cognitive therapy, also my lifestyle became healthy and I broke a keystone habit of smoking so the health related value popped into place, which helped a lot. My reward center will be completely fixed in about 4 months. I'm adding this because the click was made in a single day by a young me with a history of self destructive behaviors, drug abuse, and a slightly off balance biochemistry. So happily remove any doubts that you are not (yet) eligible for logic as a core value." Source
"I watched the video of the four steps by Athene about 30 mins before driving to a remote venue for a wedding I attended. Directly after the video I googled "how to find my core value", and found a site that explained something along these lines: identify your greatest achievements and your greatest failures and when you were at your most efficient and most inefficient, then find a common rule or theme among those.I put my phone away and drove to pick up my significant other. Not long after we set out to the remote venue I told her that I am looking for my core value and started bouncing ideas off her. Not long after we each named a few and had a few explanations I formulated the idea that my core value was "perfection".I was always striving to get to 100% at everything interesting to me, by biggest accomplishments are the ones where I thought I was closest to the top 100% and biggest failures was when I thought I failed miserably at being better than other people.After looking for exceptions to the rule and not finding any, I thought that's a pretty accurate definition of my core value. The feeling of pride, or success was the driving factor in almost every decision I made.Technical skills such as rhetoric and critical thinking is really important if you want to either seem like you are better than everyone else, or if you want to generate proof of that believe for yourself. So I think my skills in using logic and reasoning was decent enough so step 1 was easy. I just opted to have faith in logic, and it made sense based on the assumption that logical rules underpin everything in the universe at every level of emergence or scale.Quickly after just sitting with the idea that my core value is striving to be perfect, I followed step 3, and with the same logic Athene uses in Real Answers I just reasoned the following: My need to be perfect stops me from becoming perfect. This is because I cannot tolerate anything that tells me I am not perfect. This blinded me to my own faults and errors I make. Effectively making me arrogant and extremely vulnerable and afraid of any criticism to the idea that 'I am perfect'.After reasoning on a few more occasions through the day that striving for perfection is not going to make me perfect, I attended the wedding and got smashed in the mean time.The next morning with a pretty decent hangover, I noticed that I was able to think about things that elicit a fear response without terminating the thought or looking away from the thought or emotion. This is when I clicked*. "My identity is gone", I thought to myself. This is what I perceive to be selflessness. My identity was there to protect me from scary thoughts and emotions that might threaten my perfect status.The rest of the day was really interesting, I was learning things about myself and other people at a rapid pace, but it didn't feel like effort. It just felt as though every time I feel something negative I just identify what and why I am feeling like that, and most of the time a solution presents itself or the anxiety about the emotion just dissipated. I thought: "change everything you can't accept and accept everything you can't change" is pretty close to my mindset now, the automatic response to everything I do. I broke my racial barrier (which is a big thing in South Africa), I fixed a deep problem with me and my mother's relationship, I faced fears like every few moments with staggering ease, and started thinking up solutions to everything in my life that's bothering me almost automatically. My life has definitely changed, and it was those four steps that did the trick. Thanks Athene and crew for doing your part, it's time for me to do mine. Good luck guys." Source
"Watched Athene's video on the four steps. Googled how to find my core value. Identified my core value to be "perfection". Reasoned that striving for perfection stops me from achieving perfection since it doesn't allow me to look at my faults and errors. Next day I noticed while driving that my identity is missing (specifically I noticed I was able to think about things that elicit a fear response without terminating the thought or looking away). That's when I clicked. Also noticed a few profound moments scattered throughout the day of catharsis and other pleasant emotions. Fear has lost it's hold on my actions. My need to share this information quickly followed. Then I wrote this. Also, keep it up guys!" Source
"It was definitely the best feeling I've ever had."
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"I am 16 years old and from Canada, and yesterday I clicked.I had already grown quite a bit in terms of understanding from listening to real talk and working on it for the past year. However the main reason I hadn't clicked was because I saw logic as something external. I loved logic but I didn't experience it as a part of me. So when I was rewatching the latest video to try and find something that would help me I "locked on" to Athene saying logic is your creator. So then I tried to talk to the emotional part of myself and kept thinking things like "Logic is everything" "I am only logic" and made my emotions as comfortable with logic as I am with things like comfort.For the next 30 minutes or so I watched the video on repeat and kept making myself feel comfortable with logic and understand how much comfort was impacting me negatively. I thought about how comfort had made me depressed and how logic got me out of it. I thought about how throughout my life there was never a time where comfort would been better than logic as my core value. I thought about how even today the only thing having comfort as my core value was doing was creating unnecessary dissonance.Then I clicked, I started shaking/rolling around in my chair and felt amazing. Honestly it wasn't an unimaginable feeling but it was definitely the best feeling I've ever had. I no longer had anything to worry about and everything just came naturally." Source
"it opens you a door to be able to logically fix your problems"
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Depressed after my friends suicide
"I am 20 years old and from Finland, I believe I have clicked. I'm not comfortable stating that I have clicked with certainty because I fear it will create an emotional attachment to the idea. I can say it is likely that I have gone trough a paradigm shift based on what others have said and a faint idea of what religious people go trough when finding god. During the past two years I have used a lot of drugs. During the experience I was trying to compare it to my previous experiences on drugs and what reminded me of it was extremely positive realizations on psychedelics, but it lasted hours before calming down.
I didin't understand logic beyond a cold faint idea that explained my rational actions. When Athene showed the stream a video about fractals at first I didin't see them as anything beyond a useful idea (The next part is where I believe many people start seeing this thing as religious spiritual brainwashed cult bullshit, but try to understand that this is an extremely personal, emotional and illogical part of you that you are trying to convince). What worked for me to saw logic in a different way was that I didin't understand what beuty was, if something should be beautiful it should be something logical like fractals. I followed this by thinking about my problems and childhood events that might have shaped my core value and suddenly as I had my eyes closed I started seeing all the blackness fade away replaced by a bright light and around the corners I saw colorful patterns emerge followed by an intense like orgasmic pleasure and shaking. I understand why this sounds stupid to people, it sounds something a religious person would say to convince you but understand that it is an emotional response.
I was depressed after my friends suicide. I had blocked all emotions and it had made me fear everything that didin't give me comfort. I couldn't go to school or go comfortably outside or to public places. This doesn't magically fix all your problems, but it opens you a door to be able to logically fix your problems." Source
Name: srfnz (unclicked again)
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"im 22 years old guy from ukraine. my english is broken and im not gonna waste a lot of time on errors, it's hard for me to identify them. it's gonna be messy.
I clicked 3 days ago when all this logic hysteria started. The process of transformation was almost regular. I deeply thought about my core value (its comfort) and spotted how it evolved through my entire life. I had a good dissonance in 15 minutes. The only problem was with grasping the "beauty of logic". I was very non-logical person and couldn't even critically think last year. Im simply patched my core value with all athenes realtalks (admiting of that actualy did a lot of dissonance for me so its helpful for athene's old-timers). So the only warm feeling that i could relate with logic was the conclusion that logic helped me to be TRULY comfortable with my flawed core. I gained more validation by using logic, less social anxiety, more success overall (i had these moments in my life by using it). So this ez train of thoughts fucked up me later. When I cliked i had a bit of relief and SO MUCH dissonance. I started to search logic in everything. I couldn't sleep until morning. That was pretty painful. Sometimes i thought that i changed my flawed core to another flawed comfort bs. The reason for all that was my small understanding of logic. I had it emotionally but not fully rationaly. I had it as a core value and couldn't find it in a lot of things. Last two days i read all of my notes from RT, thinked about logic and tried to understand it as much as i can. With click im finaly can reflect on things that Athene said and truly understand them. I have i big relief with every logical solution i came up. Finaly my mind almost cleared.
I wanna give u an advice. Try to grasp concept of logic as good as u can before changing the cores. Or it will cause a big wave of dissonance after. There are still few nuances but it is all what I can tell due to the language barrier." Source
PreClick Core Value: Validation
"I'm one of lukers in Athene's chat, I would follow podcasts and change my habits thanks to them. I started working out, eating healthy(recently going vegetarian). But after Tim's appearance on stream I felt like I'm lacking something. I would always reason that my actions are logical, but I've never felt euphoria or weird excitement inside of me. So I after todays stream I started thinking about my core value again... So I'm lying in my bed and thinking about it:
- I would always waste my time on games so my core value is playing games / comfort.
But after few minutes I started thinking:
- Well maybe I clicked in the past thanks to podcasts and I will not feel any euphoria. And then I thought really weird thing: !!!!! - Next stream I will tell Athene I clicked and right after it I watched Theory of everything 2 times(which would be straight up lie) !!!!!!
And I suddenly clicked, I understood that my core value wasn't comfort but validation seeking, I started laughing in the bed, I was trembling with excitement, I automatically connected this mind set with negative feelings, and truly understood how logical it is that I did soo. Now excuse me cuz I can't sleep so Imma watach some Theory of everything cuz I feel like in need of answers and last time I watched it was more of intellectual fap than truly absorbing logic of it.
PreClick Core Value:
"Day 1 - The click day
I did my usual stuff which was browsing Youtube and playing WoW, but at the time I was experiencing quite large dissonance. I knew I need to change my life but I felt I need some kind of impulse to do it. I started watching the stream. A thought pop up - logic gives me safety and comfort, I don't need anything else anymore. I realised that my believe system may be flaw because I looked at it as a absolute truth, and I would collapse if it turned out to be false (looking at my believe system in probabilities couldn't give me comfort). It was really emotional. I experienced a dopamine rush; it was the best feeling ever, much better than marijuana. I'm not sure if this is accurate: I transfered the positive emotion from my believe system to logic. From this moment I had desire to make sense all the time, and I did it. I instantly gave up all my emotional attachements - listening to music seemed like a waste of time, I lost the urge to create my own game. I wanted to spread it so I whispered people on Twitch that could be potential "clickers". After the stream I started thinking if I really clicked or not; I didn't figure it out. It was late so I went to sleep; falling asleep was hard.
Day 2 - Realisation
I created a to-do list and started doing things from it. Almost whole day I did the most rational thing to do - mostly working, 0 games/entertainment, when I was tired I did something that stimulated me. I felt great all day even if I was exhausted after work because of dopamine. I experienced a small dissonance if I did something irrational, but I didn't bash myself about it and moved on. I found out that watching the stream is stimulating, so I did that. During the stream I came to conclusion that I truly clicked and logic is my core value on a emotional level. Again I had a trouble falling asleep.
Day 3 - Moving forward
Again I made sense all day and felt great. Even better than yesterday because I no longer had the doubts if I clicked. I couldn't believe how my life has changed since the click, it felt (and still feels) like a dream. Around 8pm I went to gamingforgood.net/s/athenelive. The stream was offline but I joined the chat, trying to help someone while waiting for Athene. After he went online I listened to the stream and kept talking with people. Athene wanted to have call with me but I rejected it. This caused insane dissonance - I had always had strong shyness/social anxiety and I feared that it can stop me from making sense. On the other hand I wasn't sure if talking to Athene was the right thing to do, because I wasn't prepared for it (I didn't know what to say), but maybe that was just a backwards realisation. It was late so I went to sleep, without issues this time (low dopamine level).
Day 4 - Extreme dissonance
As I woke up the dissonance from yesterday came back. I started reading "Real Answers"; the dissonance increased because I wasn't doing the right thing. I got to the point where I couldn't focus and even had a hard time breathing. I was so stressed only once in my life before, it was almost paralyzing. I realised that the only fix was to start making sense again. The dissonance ended as I accepted that calling Athene and coming over is the right thing (the most rational thing). I couldn't imagine losing logic so I had to do it. I started writing this text. I took some breaks from it and I spent quite some time on the subreddit, reading and answering. I realised that finishing this text is more important so I did that. I don't have any dissonance from no making sense before because it makes sense to focus on the now rather than on the past. My next steps is to get financially independent and apply, and before that having a call on the stream with Athene. I didn't have the time to be on the stream today. Possible that I won't have the time in the next 3 days because of stuff that isn't really dependent on me. I still don't know if my core value was safety or comfort, but it doesn't really bother me - it's gone." Source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
PreClick Believes/Troubles: procrastinating
"I am 23 years old and from Sweden. So i went through all of my life in my head searching for signs of my core value. Here's my life basically: All of my childhood i went through school without really knowing why, i always procrastinated homework and never really knew why i had to learn all these things. Outside of school i always escaped reality by gaming on the PC. When i entered to the Gymnasium i had a real hard time deciding what i should be doing with my life so i just chose what fit my persona the best. I chose to educate myself to a carpenter because i did not want to sit and not move my body anymore since my body told me i did not feel good about it. After school i started working as a carpenter right away Since i was told i had to work in life and earn money. Even now i did not know what i wanted to do with my life. But it was around 1 year after i started working that i was kinda forced into training my body at the gym since my body was in bad shape after all this sitting and gaming. Through all of my school time i have had problems with stomach pain and cramps in my muscles and now i forced my self to start training to get rid of this problem. I now started training a lot outside of work and started to feel better in my body. I had now lost my work as a carpenter and decided to follow my newfound passion for training and health to educate my self to a personal trainer and grow into a stronger version of my self. After my education i found a work as personal trainer pretty fast and decided that i now wanted to learn as much as possible about training etc. I wanted to read and learn a lot but i never did... i just procrastinated and never really felt like reading up and learning stuff even if i wanted it! And as result i have been on and off depressed for a year until about 1 month ago. I had now found Athene's stream and found it really interesting! I started listening to his podcast almost every day and tried to catch time to visit the stream. As a result i patched up my life some and realised why i was doing what i was.
So this Tuesday i watched Athene's stream and got really excited with how many people it was that actually clicked. After the stream i went to bed and woke up next day (yesterday, Wednesday) and started meditation on my life. And it is so clear to me that my subconscious core value is comfort since it knows it does not have to do anything in order to live on so to say, i don't really know how to explain it better.
About now i knew that my core value is comfort and decided to change it since comfort only bring me depression by not being able to do what i really want. I looked at what i was doing and what i had to do in order for it to be logical and realised that it was not logical at all to be working as a personal trainer and grow into a stronger version of my self, because its my ego that want all this. I really had a hard time letting go of this at first and i really had to talk with my inner child and say it was okay and make it feel good about logic and that logic is something warm and beautiful. So i accepted that it was much more logical to apply to Athene and work with changing the world than my ego growing as a personal trainer, i realise that working as a personal trainer brings very little to the world. When i actually took this leap of faith i really got a fuzzy feeling in my stomach/chest and got really excited when i realised what i had done. After this i also got really stressed out, anxious and restless and i still got this feeling. It is actually hard to breath something tight in my chest and have now felt this for 1 and a half day. I have a hard time really knowing what it is that is causing it but i think its because i don't really work on something that with a good cause yet, like spreading this knowledge.... I really feel like making logic out of everything though, i have been super aware all this time trying to make logic of what i do! I will now apply to Athene and as soon as i know that i have been accepted i will quit my work asap and travel to Athene's place pronto!" Source
PreClick Core Value:
"I've been thinking about this logic as a core value for about 4 days straight now, non-stop ive been trying to make it my core value and i think I've finally done and the feeling is amazing. The way i did it was by doing pretty much what athene said. However, it took me a lot longer to actually do
1) I was really honest to my self about my core value and why i had it, and really going deep into my childhood to see the reasons i had that core value. If there are any important moments in your life that you think shaped you, ask why they did and in what way. Another good way is by thinking what you do through out your day and why.
2) Compare the core value of logic to the one you have, why one would be better than the other. At this point you should experience dissonance because you are going against your Core but that is good. after this you can also compare it with something that happened in your life (e.g getting dumped) and if you would feel better with logic which you would.
3) After this i just repeated these steps constantly in combat with my core value and why logic would be better. There wasn't any concrete thing that made me click. However , it helped me to watch cosmos ep 13 like Ricardo said . That might work for some not for others,
When you do manage to actually make logic/making sense your core value(make sure you don't lie to yourself about having it as a core value) you will experience a great amount pleasure as there's a release of dopamine then you will feel a really warm feeling in your chest(that is how it felt for me). You might also question if you really did adopt logic, You will not want that feeling to go away and it shouldn't ,you will want to spread it.
I hope this helps people. It might take some time but trust just keep going, figure out and question your core even if it doesn't work the first time just keep going. When i was questioning my core and trying to replace it i was doing it pretty much everywhere. When taking a shower, while walking to school, in School, at home, when trying to sleep. So it might take time but it is worth it" Source
Preclick Core Value: Comfort (and a little bit of validation seeking)
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Laziness, lying to other people to show "that im good at something"
So basically i have made the click on the 15th october when tim was talking how he made the click, actually while he was talking it happened and i felt really alot of warmth in my stomach and in my chest.
So the way I was able to make the click was like this: I listened to the realtalk on the 14th october when reese and athene were talking about adopting logic as a god! and I could really resonate with that. Since i grew up in a religious household and I (even though it was irrational) always had the thought that there might be a "higher power" that controls everything. At that moment i realised that there actually is a higher power! and its logic and as long as i follow it i will not get let down by it and my life will improve for sure! That was my rational part thinking that btw.
So i looked at my core value which was comfort and validation seeking and really tried to look at the flaws of them like for example: Im just sitting here watching YT videos and having "Fun" while there are people dying and i could help them! and i put myself in the situation like what if i was the guy dying and some dude who could help me doesnt help me because he is too lazy! Also at 1 point i would have to get out of this doing nothing mode anyways, like when my parents kick me out or something... But for some reason (even though i was feeling alot of dissonance) i couldnt make the click that night, but only when Tim talked about his expirence the next day. I think it was since i felt really connected to Tim and i saw how his life was improved by adopting logic as a core value that my emotional part also really wanted it
Since then my life has improved drasticly. I never rarely feel anxiety and if i ever do i know its only because I dont have all the knowledge about it. I got alot more confident and I do the most logical things just naturally like help other people, study for school, help out my parents in the house stuff like that.
PreClick Core Value:
"It's 5.45 AM right now. Im playing the latest real talk on twitch TV on te background while typing. Paradigm is shifted and to overwhelming to go to sleep. All this clarity, al this energy. The most logical thing to do is to show the people that its working right now. It's litterly the best thing i can do right now.
I grew up in an dysfunctional family and therefore with a lot of fear. I created an ID to distract my true self so i would not be confronted with my flaws. I had comfort/safety as a core value because of this flawed worldview.
This old ID existed out of acting tough and creating an self that was not in line with reality. At the beginning it worked. But reality wil always come and get u. So everytime i got confronted with reality, i tried to flee from what i truly am by manipulating the mind. By creating situations that would create dopamine (drugs, alcohol), adrenaline (Fights, attention seeking) i tried to flee from my true self and hold this fake ID. This eventualy lead to me laying in a hospital bed 2 times for using drugs that created panic attacks. And 1 time for being in a fight where someone pulled an knife and stuck it in an main artery. I almost lost my life because of this. You would think this would make me stronger and live life on a good way again.
But, because of the low selfesteem on a fundamental level, i was still scated. Actually a weak organism with a flawed way of thinking, and because of that i always experienced alot of dissonance. I was so misguided, that i thought i needed the validation of other people. While the only one that could provide me what i needed, was the true self.
So i needed answers.. I read alot of books for information, but nothing concrete enough to apply. Nothing that my mind could really grasp. I checked psychology books, spiritual books, like Eckhart Tholle's in the Now. It got me close, but i never got far because i missed crucial information about how to overcome this crisis. Until this week.
This one person, the first chain of this neurologic revolution, Bachir Boumaaza, Also known as Athene, gave me the most concrete usefull information ever. SWITCH YOUR CORE VALUE IN TO LOGIC.
By learning that i am the reason why purpose exists. And that everything around me, the whole universe, is a projection of what my brains think it is, i know the '' external'' and '' internal'' are linked. We are one. And i need to care for it. I am the Universe and i shall take care of it. And be the best i can be. Al by applying this one true UNIVERSAL LAW, called LOGIC.
It's like there are still things to do. Things that i would use to call problems, because i didn't know i could solve them, but know i just see as things i need to do and act up on.
I know now, that the thing i saw as '' my story '', is just an memory muscle that i can use to solve things RIGHT NOW. Nothing more. Thinking in an diachronic timeline is false when you identify with it.
This whole ID was an survival mechanism. One that evolution tried and now it came to the conclusion that it does not work. At the beginning it's uncomfortable, but you will have full clarity. It's so exciting but scary at the same time at first. Al of the people around you, just look lost. Everytime i bring reality up as it is, they experience cognitive dissonance. We live in an scared society and people are being controlled. I was selfish and lost in greed. Eating for the kick, instead of eating to grow. I did'nt care for other people, because i didn't care for myself. I see it al now. Al my mistakes. Al my flaws.
I still got some things to do. Things i ignored for to long. But with this information and neuroplasticity. I know. I can achieve anything. And i will. I will make a difference.With like minded people. And live a valuable life. I am saved. And i want you guys to know that you will be to. Soon. If u accept it or not. Reality will come for u guys. And to be honest. Its not even that scary. Its lovely." Source
PreClick Core Value:
PreClick Core Value:
"I understood and respected the validity in information that is the real talk pod casts. Unraveling certain concepts, questioning, and applying them greatly increased the quality of my life. Just like everyone else, I valued logic but had absolutely no emotional attachment. I would force myself to participate in anything activist related. Although, I always knew that If given the option and truly did what I wanted to do, I would stay home. I was aware of this for quite some time, but thought it was something unchangeable. I would relate it to how Athene says he's lazy but experiences choice-less awareness. Hearing that, I assumed choice-less awareness was something that could be learned and refined through discipline and sheer will power.
Water fasting for three days and meditation were key in my experience. Still, i believe meditation will be the vessel for most to make the click. Luckily, I was already strongly connected emotionally, because as odd as it sounds, I was fortunate enough to experience war. Nevertheless, you don't need experience in order to value information emotionally, it simply sped things up in my experience.
Step 1: My experience was mostly visual. Picturing everything that I ever held dear and understanding on a deeper level how it always came back to logic. Ranging from my parents warmth to the air I breathe. Even digging up past relationships that ended badly and being ultimately grateful to logic that I was ever able to have those experiences. Telling myself that it was going to be "ok" was something that resonated strongly with me. Trust for me was pivotal.
Step 3: Already understanding how unhealthy and illogical my current value was I went directly to the image of the child holding the teddy bear. Looking closer I imagined the child to appear sickly. His hair was falling out and had overgrown nails. His body was weak and covered in sores from being stagnant for so long. I imagined the teddy bear as a dead animal that the child had smothered. I asked myself how I could have allowed it to get to this point. I felt shame and disgust. Thinking about all the times in my life I chose comfort over taking initiative. My inaction was causing suffering. I was the problem.
Step 4: The gears turned. I was fully aware that I was experiencing something cathartic. When I opened my eyes I could almost see through objects and visualize the internals, cell by cell. I had a new found appreciation for everything and a strong sense of curiosity. I wanted to understand everything. I told my siblings about the experience and peaked their interest. My younger sister has since clicked 2 days ago.
Having experienced this paradigm shift I finally understand what choice-less awareness is. It comes automatic and gives me even more reassurance in logic." source
PreClick Core Value:
" Hello, everyone. The purpose of this post is to help people click and to serve as proof that this 4-step method actually works. I had previously placebo clicked - experienced uplifting feelings and emotions, but after a couple of hours this feeling just vanished so I knew something was wrong and that I had to do additional reflecting and meditating, but I've clicked 2 days ago for real. I am going to walk you through my experience how I remember it.
Step 1: Develop an unconditional trust in logic I've been following Athenes Real talks for a long while, reflecting on each topic he speaks about. Much like Reese trusts Athene, you can say that I trust Athene as well, so even if some things that he said confused me, I knew that I would understand it with enough time. After much thought I started adopting things mentioned in the real talk, because I could see the benefit in them. Since all of these insights stem from logic I established a real appreciation for it.
Step 2: Find what emotionally drives you This part was not too difficult for me. It took only an hour or so of meditating to know truly what drove me emotionally - it was comfort. After this realization a lot of stuff suddenly made a lot of sense. Questions like "Why I am doing something even though my rational part says to do otherwise" finally had answers.
Step 3: Realize that your current core value doesn't provide as much safety as logic This was the most difficult part for me, since I was following the insights from the real talks, what I was doing was patching holes of my core value, which made it more difficult to identify the bad things about having comfort as the core value. One day I was at a friends house and we were smoking marijuana. I felt great for the time being, but once I started walking back home I experienced a lot of dissonance. I felt like this was the perfect opportunity to click, since I was in an elevated emotional state and could evoke emotions more easily. During my walk I realized that I did not actually want to be in this state, but rather that my environment was pushing me to do this. This caused a tremendous amount of negative emotions. Once I got home I continued this procedure, but I also thought it would be good if I could push away comfort and invite logic instead. So I put Cosmos to play in the background during this process. After a couple of minutes this happened - I felt an enormous rush of dopamine, if I had to put this feeling into words then it would be - feeling of invincibility, omnipotence. But this is only a side effect. The main effects were as follows: clarity of thought, tremendous relief, because suddenly all my personal problems had solutions, no duality - true symbiosis between emotions and reason. I was never so happy in my entire life, I almost cried tears of joy, due to this rush of emotions. While I was still trying to understand what happened, I realized that I had put Cosmos to play in the background and when I put my focus on that I experienced another rush of emotions - my appreciation for logic grew 10x as much. After all of this, I felt that my brain was in a volatile state - a feeling or fear that you could pop back into your previous core value. I really did not want that to happen then I remembered step 4.
Step 4: Keep making logical decisions to strengthen your trust in logic Since I realized on an emotional level that this core value is so much better that my previous one, I had to establish a strong level of trust for logic. At that time the most logical thing for me was to power my brain with as much blood circulation as possible, so I started stretching, jumping, exercising. After this I remembered that cold showers helped me be more clear headed, but before taking a cold shower I wrote my thoughts in a notepad, so that If I would un-click I would have something to work with. But thankfully I did not un-click.
Summary To tell you the truth, I feel reborn, I feel like my eyes have been finally opened, because I want to understand not only the things that make me comfortable, but everything that I find important. And I do it not because I only understand it rationally, but because this is what drives me now. Logic is my core value now." Source
PreClick Core Value:
"I clicked three days ago, but because it happened while I was talking to a friend and I did not really follow the 4 steps, I think my exact story would not be very useful. So I will just formulate of how I clicked in a general advise, maybe it works for someone else, because I also know of a different clicker, who clicked while doing a similar thing. As I think this method only works for few people in special situations, it really only applies to people, who are already trying to click for quite some time and tried many things that did not work for them:
Talk to a person close to you (friend) and try to explain to him this “click thing”. Maybe choose someone you know will not think you crazy afterwards. Try to be as convincing as possible, even if you are still skeptical yourself. Use a structure so that it makes it more easy to understand for an outsider. If you are already trying to make the click, you are probably pretty excited about the idea of “clicking” and the implications it could have on your life and for the world in general. Try to use those emotions and build up on the hype. Btw it does not matter, if you actually can make that person understand what you are trying to say, because I know I couldn't and I still clicked." Source
PreClick Core Value:
"Before I clicked, I used to be a huge validation seeker. This was caused because I couldn't fit in with other people as a kid. When I entered high school, I also experienced feelings of lower worth and so I found a friend with whom we were constantly validating each other, thinking we were smarter, better than the rest and so on. Later, I linked my validation with building an identity around being good with girls and being a self development guru / being able to help other people feel better about themselves. I also built a strong rational framework to protect my weak core.
Before today, I tried hard to make myself click using pure rationality, that didn't work, because I had a strong framework of backwards rationalizations and a lot of my previous bullshit fixed by listening to real talks. I also had trouble experiencing emotions because over the years, my core discarded most of my negative emotions to protect itself.
Today Staz had a talk on the stream about how he tried to view himself as the small child he used to be and talk to that child to activate the emotions associated with it's core value, so I decided to try it during a meditation.
I started meditating and then I tried to project myself fully into the kid that had problems with it's peers, with other people, that felt worthless and I tried to feel that kid's emotions as openly as possible. After a few minutes I started experiencing a lot of anxiety, fear and sadness. I started connecting these bad emotions to the core values I had and after some more time I started experiencing anger towards these values. After that I started comparing logic, the love of the universe and the entire reality with the previous values and how "we" had the logical core value the entire time in front of us, loving "us" at every moment.
After a few seconds, I started experiencing extreme clarity, resonance and joy, I started crying of happiness, which I haven't done in possibly the previous 10 years. I also started:
- Experiencing clarity
- Enjoying just being in it's simplest form
- Feeling other people is 10 times simpler and people overall seems simpler to understand
- The reality seems extremely beautiful
- Deleted the one last game I played
- Resonance and Anxiety disappeared
- Getting girls for validation seems bullshit
- Working out for validation seems bullshit
- Entertainment seems a waste of time
- I'm constantly in the now
- There is also a slight fear that this might be a placebo click or that I might loose it" Source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hey guys so this is my story of how Ive clicked (Im still shaking ) : I went to sleep after 5 days of blind wandering about how to click, I was looking for validation and trying to click ASAP so that I would fill my validation, my core values had something to do with perfection>validation>low self esteem and then one day on stream Ive heard this advice from both Athene and the Admin, talking about this inner child holding onto something. I realized that I cant think inside my brain all the time because all of those thoughts came from the rational, I realized that I HAVE to fight this emotionally and Ive literally IMAGINED the inner child I had in myself when I went to sleep, I was in the present at that time and focused only on this child holding onto low self esteem sending those orders to my validation and perfection to do what it wants them to do so that it feels good about itself. Suddenly, POOF, it was not exactly like a nuclear boom but it was like a shockwave as if Ive been cleared of all the pointless thoughts, literal enlightenment or something in those lines. I immediately stood up AUTOMATICALLY without asking myself and having inner brain noise, I decided that the most logical thing to do now is to tell someone, so I messaged people on Discord and since no1 was responding by a minute or so ( I was checking the curriculum meanwhile to save time ) I decided to go outside because I felt like it was the most logical at that time ( increasing my blood flow). It was 2:20 am and I just went around the streets and looked at the beautiful trees, saw the beautiful fractiles in them and it was just a pleasure to watch, I didnt even think about going slow and my body automatically moved forward really fast. Before going out, back then, I would have still went infront of the mirror and tried to look as pretty as possible or whatever, and Im pretty sure I wouldve doubted going out at 2:20 am so randomly + I wouldve been insecure outside. I felt happy and with no real fear and so I came back in 20 minutes or so as I realized it was more logical to go read the Curriculum and go find out about my health so that my walking is more efficient and so on. Ive talked to a clicker on discord and so now Im here writing, Im not sure what Ill think is the most logical for me to do in the near future but Im almost certain Ill go learn a shitload right now to fill in the gaps and love logic even more, I may peek out here and check on the comments you guys post, if anyone from the crew is reading this just contact Alesh on Discord.
EDIT 1: Whenever I did something very illogical, got into pointless thoughts, I acknowledged it really really fast and it created super dissonance inside my brain, it was like how mice react to high frequencies lol , I immediately boomed and cleared all my thoughts again, and again and again. ( This happened when I was trying to fall asleep )
EDIT 2: I was super super shaking and I couldnt stop after the click for some time" Source
PreClick Core Value:
"3 days ago I was thinking what makes me emotional I figured out a really sad documentary might be good. So I finish watching the documentary and start thinking that if it's not for logic the kids are going to stay homeless and that comfort is the one that let it happen after that I close my eyes. At beginning I'm trying to think about the docu, the emotions, but it's all black I could not use my mind ,but then I suddenly see myself hugging the kid from documentary. I opened my eyes felt little dizzy. Since it was late I went to sleep, but for ~30 min I could physically feel strong activity going on in the brain that didn't let me sleep during it. Day after I immediately took care of my shit in the room, washed all the stacked plates lul, ate some breakfast and started working on the pc for 1st time there was literally no duality I couldn't give less fucks about the tv series and films I would usually watch. I started going to gym as well. It has changed my daily activities insanely. One thing that does sometimes happen I unconsciously/auto mode open a video or some cancer, but once I realize dafq I'm doing I close immediately, but with little bit of little bit of time it's gonna go away." Source
PreClick Core Value:
"I want to share my experience with how I clicked. I really had trouble with connecting a negative emotion to my former core value (step 3), which inhibited me from adopting logic instead. For those who also have a hard time doing this, this post might be helpful.
Step one: Step one I thought wouldn't be too difficult for me since I have been studying physics for four years now. I knew already, rationally, that logic is what governs the universe. Although this was the case, this wasn't enough. It was only when Stas posted his click story that my appreciation of logic broadend. In his post he explained really well that we are logic understanding itself, we are logic inside logic, which took billions of years to get this far.
Step two: This step was straight foward. I sat down and meditated on what has been driving me in my life. Everything pointed to validation seeking due to low self esteem. It is really a crazy experience when I realized that so many, almost everything, that I did in my life came down to how other people saw me, and how I could get validation from that.
Step three: This was the step where I got stuck for a long time, several days. I knew on a rational level that validation seeking was really inhibiting my growth in life. However, I really had trouble connecting a negative emotion to it. Since thoughout my life, I made decisions that resulted in getting validated, which triggered my rewardcenter (as it was my core value). This is why I couldn't remember memories that could connect a negative emotion to my core value. After quite some time I contacted a clicker on the Discord about the problem I had. He advised me to think of any bad memory that triggered negative emotions and really experience the emotions. Then funnel these negative emotions to your core value you want to replace. This worked for me wonderfully.
During this emotional transition I remembered Stas' post about humans being logic expressing and understanding itself. This is where I made the click, feeling euphoric and experience a rush of dopamine. I was laughing and crying as I looked at things through different eyes.
I immediatly went to the Discord and contacted clickers. I also contacted Athene on Skype to have a call during the livestream to tell my experience.
As for step four, I will spend my time building up a foundation based on logic. I will do research and think a lot. I will also be on the Discord and Wiki to help out others." Source
PreClick Core Value:
"The click really only took me a few hours. This is because before the click I was already able to act very rationally in line with my core belief of social validation. By reading books on habit, I had mastered my habits, and by changing some of my beliefs using this website: http://pathwaytohappiness.com/writings_falsebeliefs.htm I had corrected some beliefs that led me to desire procrastination and pleasure.
But I didn't have logic as my core value. Why? Because I felt that with logic as my core value there would be no real reason for me to live, to act, and I'd felt this for a long time, since my childhood. It was the reason for all my other beliefs that I'd adopted to give myself artificial reason to act. Mainly, I could not see the link between the fact that humans are where we are today from evolution, and the action of further evolving. But a simple point on discord resolved this for me. The clicker I spoke to said very simply: "Well you have the choice. Would you want to be like a caveman right now, without evolving? Or as you are now" The answer was clear and I realised something.
Maybe there is a logical reason to act right now, or maybe not, but only by increasing the knowledge of humanity can we move forward and find out and discover more, and expand in every way, in ways that I do not even know about today.
If you had to choose who has the better shot at figuring out what the true best action to take is, would you choose a caveman or a scientist from today's world? Well extrapolate that graph into the future, and you realize that by evolving and gaining knowledge we can know more about the best course of action to take, but simultaneously, it becomes clear that increasing our knowledge and evolving is simply what humankind is and that that's our one purpose (I've tried to stay away from the word purpose because I feel it doesn't truly represent what I'm trying to say and will also be emotionally loaded for anyone who reads it)
We are logic, and we have the amazing ability to comprehend logic, and we are self aware logic. The idea that we can put the abstract rules and logic of our universe into symbols and use this medium to comprehend our universe now blows my mind.
So after all of this realization (and more) I went through the four steps. I'd been prepared for this for a while, so it didn't take long.
But after I took logic as my core value, I felt a sensation, as though I were stretching after a long car ride, and a wild amount of mental clarity.
After this, it no longer takes any effort to do activities that I realize are logical.
I realize my click is different to the clicks of many here. I don't feel a drive to understand everything. Rather, I simply do what makes logical sense to me. Simply to test if I had really clicked, I went on Youtube and watched a video that I had wanted to watch for days before clicking (but had not allowed myself), expecting dissonance. I didn't feel dissonance like many people here would, but at the same time, I felt literally no desire to watch the video, or keep watching it once i'd begun watching it. Perhaps it was because testing whether I had clicked by watching the video was actually logical, if you think about it." Source
PreClick Core Value: comfort
"I found out about The Click a week ago,after seeing Athene streaming and talking about it. I was skeptical at first because just turning to logic didn't make much sense to me,but the more I actually listened and studied to the idea of logic in nature,the more sense it made. I started thinking a lot about logic,and how it didn't make sense that I would spend 8 hours a day in front of my computer playing games and just doing nothing when in that time I could do so much,I could write,I could think,I could learn.
I understood that my comfort didn't provide me with anything but wasting time,thinking about problems and just not being productive. I started meditating and reflecting on what I was slowly learning,I watched many of the documentaries athene has shown on his stream,but I also started searching for them myself,learning a lot about fractals,math,physics, and logic.
One night I was deeply thinking about logic and it just came to me,my heart started beating very fast and I knew I clicked. I thought a bit more about logic and how this will guide me towards bettering myself and I just stood up,turned on the light and studied math for about an hour even though I am having holidays. After that I went to sleep,I woke up and the first thing I was thinking about was : What's the most logical thing I could do, I did my usual morning routine and went into the kitchen to get a drink,but I also started lighting up my cigarette and I just felt so bad after the first smoke I just threw it away. I spent a few minutes just thinking how it's not logical to smoke,it was not bettering me and I did it just so I could feel cool.
Today I studied science and math without having to force myself to do so,I did it just for the sake of learning and it felt so good. Everything was so much easier because I was using logic to think about it. Right now I want to share this idea with all the people I can,if anybody has any questions about my click please ask them,if people turn to logic the world will definitely change." Source
PreClick Core Value:
So I made the click, and will tell you my experience in the most compact way possible. (English isn't my native language btw.)
Even though I always thought I "loved" logic I really didn't. Thinking that I loved logic wasn't that bad though because it acted as a bridge and helped me to stay focused on making the click. (When you make the click you realy understand (& feel) the concept of loving logic on an emotional level, instead of an rational one)
Basicly I tried to find my corevalue because I thought i already loved logic. After Athene pointed out that we have to find our core on an emotional level, i thought about ways to get realy emotional. I know that everyone requires different stimulation to enter an emotional state, and for me it was music (Which is the case for alot of people in my opinion). To be realy honest here, before making the click I didn't know why it made me emotional (I will come back to music a bit later).
To continue, I found my corevalue by going REALY deep, questioning every dicision I made, and came to the conclusion that all my life I was looking for acceptance and validation. I was TOTALLY sure this has to be it. The fact that I wasnt able to grasp the concept of clicking (What happens when you experience a paradigmshift) confused me, it didn't make any sense because I felt the same as before (maybe a bit worse because of dissonance). Only after clicking I understood that the reason for not understanding was my lack of logic and making sense. All these patterns weren't visible for me because i asked myself the wrong questions.
On the same day though, Athene posted a list of dokus to watch to strenghen your love for logic. I knew he postet them before, but i thought I already love logic, which in the end wasn't the case. I realy tricked and limited myself by thinking that. Please people, Step 1 is so important!
So I basicly watched "the hidden dimension" and the one with Math in the title (I don't remeber the name, but will look it up for you if you're interested), and that's where the click happend. from one moment to the other I changed. Everything made sense instantaneously. I could always find patterns in life, but now I know I CAN explain them with logic. this kind of emotionaly understanding and appreciation for all the patterns in nature was like a sensation. The fact that we are moving forward as a species because of logic. Even the question about music, which made me emotionally in the first place was much easier to understand. I could realy break down music bit by bit. Seeing notepatterns, seeing frequenciepatterns and realy seeing it for what it is.
This changed my life man... I see everything from a new point of view. I realy want to find an answer to everything and I KNOW logic will provide it. Every action I do I question now and don't take anything for granted. Everyone who didn't click realy doesn't know what he's missing out on. You realy have to realize that once you clicked, nothing is going to stop you.
I used to smoke and stoped immediately. Actually I had a lot of bad habbits that weren't even able to cause dissonance after clicking because I droped them instantly. Everything that doesn't make any sense gets deleted, gets labeled as bad and vanishes automaticly. All the things you struggle with guys... you have to realize that there is no struggle or difficulty as soon as logic is your corevalue.
The moment you click, you feel so powerful. I wasn't even able to sleep because my brain automaticly worked so hard on overwriting everything that wasn't logical. I realy had to thank Athene this night for showing me the light...
Please guys keep trying to click... It's real and it will definetly change the world as we know it." Source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hey guys, I am pretty sure I clicked and would like to share my experience.
I’m 24 years old from Switzerland. I spent most of my life and free time to play WoW since it came out. I always was very driven by it and was extremely lazy with my lifestyle overall.
I first heard about the click shortly after it became a thing at maybe the 15th of October. I was following Athene from the very beginning, and stayed hooked because of his scientific content and views on life. I was already interested in his “Real Talks” etc., so I already had a big awareness of my flawed lifestyle. I was very sceptical about the click for the first few days of watching the stream, but discarded the ideas of it being a brainwash or scam shortly after they came up.
After I was convinced that the click could be very doable for me as well ( even with low self-esteem )I wrote down my life, including points which seemed relevant for building my emotional core. To reflect on this was pretty easy for me, since I adopted mindful meditation for the past 2years. I found that my core was safety, which later on I could translate further into comfort, which I had to adopt in my early childhood, to survive in a seemingly cruel and dangerous world. I came to realize that my life was negatively influenced by comfort from the very beginning, and that it has highly limited me in life.
Now the problem I had is, that I was already trying to apply logic, on a rational level, for over a year. And my emotional trust in logic was still highly limited. But don’t get me wrong, I appreciated logic and always had the dream of helping others and making sense. I went to sleep shortly after writing down my life, because I heard clickers losing their click over night. I felt like I have to be mentally prepared and sharp in order to click.
On the next day I was trying to convince my inner child for the first time, that what it is holding on to is causing more pain and less safety. It felt like my inner child was still too afraid of logic to hold on to, even though I felt very emotional and in line towards letting go of comfort. (Btw imagining your inner child was an effective and helpful tool for me. I am reading a book about your “shadow child” which seems fairly interesting.)
The next day I got confronted with a lot of dissonance, when I had an unexpected visitor to eat dinner with, the new boyfriend of my sister. I felt a lot of dissonance at that time, went back to my room, sat down, and convinced my self to try again, even if I felt like my trust in logic might not be strong enough. I looked back to situations of my life where I had to trust logic and how I could master every situation logically, even when making mistakes and facing trouble doing so.
Then I imagined again, how my inner child, (which I imagine as my former self when I was very young), hiding in the very corner under a staircase, afraid, holding on to a teddy-bear, which I imagined to be comfort. But at the same time, I was also trying to see my myself from the perspective of my inner child, looking at my present self, reaching out for my inner child, begging the child to cling onto logic and come out of the corner. This made me able to make the switch because it made me the most emotional. This time I felt relief, and a strong desire to start trust logic. Because I didn’t test my trust in logic too much in my daily life, I immediately put on some clothes and went outside, to proof myself that I can overcome fear and comfort and trust logic unconditionally. (It was like 8pm so it was cold and dark outside) I live near a forest at a mountain, so I walked up trough the forest just with a flashlight. I was walking for over 1hour, ending up at an open area in the woods, where I could look down to the next city when I randomly started laughing and smirking, which I could not understand at this very moment. I had a good feeling about having trust in logic and having made a "leap of faith" as athene calls it. The way down I did not even need to use my flashlight.
This story may sound silly, but It was a powerful practical option I had in this very moment, to experience a strong emotion, which allowed me to unlock my trust in logic.
This seems like an enormous wall of text for me already, I am sorry for that.
But I felt like my clicking process was not obvious nor flawless in any way. Because when I came home I immediately had to puke, because I apparently caught the flu, some day before at work. While recovering, I was worried about my experience fading away, and felt uncertainty cause I could not do anything logical besides recovering as fast as I could. When I was able to go on with my life normally again I was feeling driven, subconsciously, to do the most logical stuff. I could list a lot of things that I did, for example cleaning up my PC from all forms of distractions and useless shit in general which could waste my time.
After realising some days later, that I did such actions without forcing myself to do so I was shocked. The past days when I was feeling sick I adopted the probability this just being a placebo. But when I felt euphoric about having clicked, I immediately started thinking:” Would someone that clicked even bother to find out if he truly clicked? Am I just trying to fit in?” Since I am very honest with myself, I found that answering the 3questions might be a legit thing to do, so I can share and help others.
I didn’t cover the 4 steps well, but I will list just briefly what I experienced:
- As a farmers son I always had a good connection to nature and appreciated the logic around us that have brought humanity this far. When I was questioning life around us I often got discouraged from doing so. What helped me to refresh and increase my interest and love for logic was watching some documentaries which I found on this subreddit. Including: Nature by Numbers, Fractals - The Hidden Dimension, and the Great Math Mystery.
- As mentioned, I personally could restrict my core value better with writing down my childhood and young adulthood. Defining what your emotional core is, which drives everything you do in life, is probably the easiest, when you think about your childhood. Meditation helped me a lot to go deeper into clouded and suppressed feelings and stories.
- Switching my core value was probably the hardest thing for me to do, creating dissonance for my current core value, comfort, was easy, yet making my inner child letting go of it and making it hold to a new one seemed really hard. I was listening to other people that tried and struggled with the same issue. I tried to meditate on this without big results. Even though I consider myself a sensitive guy, I had a hard time feeling warmth and safety in logic. What helped me is trying to get emotionally attached to the concept of logic. I first noticed this when arguing with my mother about the concept of clicking and making sense, I started out just with trying to explain why I felt like it is the most logical thing to do in life. When my mother started to argue about it with her subjective reality, which is conditioned, I noticed that I was getting emotionally invested and somehow felt that logic has become a new part of me.
- Keeping making sense feels like a drug to me, I started studying, reading a lot on the subreddit regarding this, changed my room to support a more logical approach, looking up recipe to cook healthy, living even healthier (sleeping more than 6-7h+ in my case), started working out again, quitted visiting social media, stopped playing games almost completely (as soon as I find myself playing WoW without the purpose of relaxing and connecting with friends for a bit I instantly feel strong dissonance), taking vitaminD3, and taking more responsibility overall. Everything unwinds itself subconsciously, I just stop myself consciously time to time and ask myself: “Is this the most logical thing I can do right now?” And of course, I still will face some deep rooted neural patterns in my brain which I have to rewire logically. Everything seems new and fresh, and I can reward myself at any given moment by making logical decisions. I do alot more than those things listed, also starting to read Real Answers and so forth.
Sorry for my grammar and writing format. I’m not used to write and never posted on reddit before. I thought sharing might be helpful or stimulating in any way for an individual that wants to click.
Kind of off-topic: Athene has been a big inspiration for me personally. And I'm really thankful for the privilege to have witnessed him doing his greatest work and he indeed changed my life for the better.
PreClick Core Value:
"Hey guys, I'm pretty sure I just clicked and thought I should share it with you guys hopefully it will help.
A little bit about myself to start. So I'm 19 and from Canada, currently living in the United States however. I have quite a bit of social anxiety, and did not really live very healthy. I mostly found myself in my room most days, either playing video games or just watching dumb videos. I did not eat very healthy at all either, eating pizza and other crappy foods quite often, although I do work out regularly.
I've followed Athene for a while, but I was kind of skeptical about this click stuff, especially when he mentioned the 4 steps, it originally sounded a lot like another typical self help guide. After seeing people actually get this stuff, I said hey you know what, this seems to be getting some people results so might as well try it.
I've been trying to do this for the last four days or so, and I was really struggling with it on a lot of levels. I'll go through my process in order, even though I did a lot of back and forth between some of the steps.
Step One: Love Logic It turns out I really underestimated this step. This is super important guys, so don't leave this out. At first, I started by watching a few videos found [/logicnation.org/wiki/Content%20to%20help%20you%20appreciate%20logic here] to really help build my love for logic. I watched Nature by Numbers, Fractals - The Hidden Dimension, and the Great Math Mystery. These were the ones that really resonated and I thought did a lot for me, the other ones didn't do so much, but I recommend going through all of them because they will have different effects on different people. I watched these basically in my first couple of days, and scratched this number off my list because I really thought I had the full appreciation that I actually needed.
Step Two: Find Core Value This one was pretty easy for me, but I analyzed all my behaviors anyways to find out the truth. I figured out that on a fundamental level I really valued comfort, but also had a lot of validation seeking behaviors and the need for safety a lot of times. What I learned from watching some of Athene's calls with clickers, is that you should really focus on what the most dominant core value is in your life on a fundamental level. I noticed that for me, my validation and safety behaviors could really boil down to the need for comfort in general, so it's best to keep that in mind.
Step Three: Dissonance and Switch This one really gave me the most trouble, as I think it does for pretty much everybody. This took me several days to really get in contact with my emotions on a core level. Over the last few days, I've been thinking really hard about how this core value is really hurting my life, and I needed to change it. I read up on a lot of the other click stories, and found from reading about them that the rational approach doesn't work. I really didn't do much with the rational approach and tried to do it on a purely emotional level. In my day to day life, I really don't experience much dissonance, and I have been really lucky with my life so it was really hard to convince my core value that what it's holding onto is really flawed. A couple days ago, I was able to stir up quite some dissonance with my core value with the help of Zillean. I really reflected on this and meditated on how meaningless all my problems were in the grand scheme of things. I mean, there are people literally dying out there, and here I am being worried about what job I will get after college? I mean come on... You really need to put your problems into perspective on the grand scheme of things and really stir up some dissonance with this, it really helped me.
Even though I did all this, and meditated on it, I was not able to make the click. However, I did notice that after this experience I was able to be a lot more aware the next day, a lot more social, and I was eating a lot healthier for no apparent reason. I found this really strange, because what I felt didn't really feel like the click, it was not what people were describing it as. I still found myself not really questioning things around me, and not really craving to understand everything. Why was this?
It was because I really did not love and appreciate logic on an emotional level yet. You really need to make sure you do the first step, super important.
So today, I found myself watching a few episodes of Cosmos for the first time. I really enjoyed them, and once again I tried to make the push tonight. I found myself listening a bit to some of the calls Athene had with other people to discuss their click stories. A few moments really resonated with me so I'll highlight them and talk a bit about what they did for me.
I listened to him talk to someone working to be a clicker who had an issue understanding how logic could come from nothing. So, Athene presented his theory that logic came from infinite chaos. It made a lot of sense to me, and it seemed like the most probable scenario like he was saying it did.
The second moment that really resonated with me was him mentioning how happiness is coming from this person's desire for comfort, because comfort is connected to his reward center.
Infinite Chaos stuff - 4:32:00 ish
Reward Center stuff - 4:47:00 ish
I really thought about and reflected about these two things. On one hand, having a really strong appreciation with how all this came from seeming chaos is just amazing. I found this mind boggling, and it really kind of boosted my love for logic in this moment. On the other hand, I thought about how comfort being connected to my reward center is bringing me happiness, and switching it with logic would give me much more happiness. I would suddenly be happy a lot more, because I would be able to appreciate everything around me a lot more, because everything is is brought about through logic.
These moments were really creating some strong emotions with me so I took this moment to really think about all of this. I really felt a strong connection to the Nature by Numbers video when I first watched it, so quickly while these emotions were running through my head I threw on the video. The music, the thoughts, and everything was really coming together in the moment. I was really feeling the love and appreciation for everything while realizing that I am missing out on so much happiness by having comfort as my core value instead of logic. Then, before I knew it, when the flower popped up with with all those seeds coming from the golden angle, everything clicked. I was in tears, I had a true appreciation for everything in this world, and how lucky we all are to be a part of it. I felt amazing, I was laughing, and crying, and looking around my room with complete awe. I felt fully awake, and since I was feeling hungry before, my hunger seemed to completely disappear and I felt completely in the moment.
After a couple of minutes, I went into the discord and told some other clickers about this. Normally I would not have been able to do it at all, because of my social anxiety, I was able to jump right in without any cares at all. Although I was fumbling through my words quite a bit due to excitement :) I'm sure because of this my social anxiety will eventually disappear completely.
So yeah, that was my story. It was pretty amazing, this shit is real guys. It may be really hard, but you have to push for it, it will change your life. Even without the click the last couple of days have been way better, so I can't imagine what it will be like now that I have clicked. Really push for it, and I think eating healthy and working out probably has huge effects for being able to focus on your emotions a lot more, so make sure you have that in check when you are trying to do this stuff. I think this was probably huge in helping me out tonight. Also one last thing, I don't know if this had any effect or not, but I'll mention it anyways: you have to really WANT to click, like really, really want to click more than anything. I found myself today and yesterday, pretty much thinking about this stuff all day. It may help to have this stuff really a part of your awareness, although I'm not sure, may need some other people to verify this to be sure.
Sorry for the probably bad reddit formatting, I don't use it too often.
Hope this helped some of you guys, if you have any question feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer." source
PreClick Core Value:
"So I think some of my background is important to know to give a better understanding of what process I went through.
I'm from Germany and I study media informatics. I also used most of my free time to play WoW. I was very lazy. I considered myself as quite intelligent. Therefore I thought I didn´t have to do much for university.
I found out about clicking on monday last week (31.10.). So many doubts came into my mind. But it was somehow very interesting to hear the expieriences of people who clicked. On tuesday I listened to some of the realtalk podcasts for the first time. Espacially the confrontational one (#51) hit me really hard.
I soon realized that my core value was comfort. Nevertheless many doubts were still rising in my head. I first wanted to ask Athene via the twitch chat but I saw that many people were having the same doubts I had. The Sentence that got me was: "Dont ask me these Questions, ask yourself WHY are you asking these Questions." I meditated on that for about two hours and I came to the conclusion that all these doubts were emotionally driven and that my core value was having problems keeping up the "confort zone" as an oasis of rewards for me. So that was when I really focused on making the click.
To love logic was not a problem for me, as I enjoyed programming and already knew that there is always a logical reason behind everything.
Like I ve said I already found out my core value so I was left with step three. I started with a rational approach:
- I wrote down all the cons of having comfort as my core value
- I meditated and told myself what I wrote down.
This approach had no effect at all. Then I read the LogicWiki.
It is a process on an emotional, subconscious level.
As I review on this I can say that it is much easier if you are aware of your emotions first. Ask yourself why you feel what you feel in a given moment. If you do that, you will recognize certain emotions when they emerge and you know where they come from. If this awareness grows big enough (it took me roughly one day), it is much easier to go on that layer with your emotions and confront your inner child with your awareness. I think awareness is the key here. This was by far the most difficult thing for me to do but I think the 4. Step will be as hard or even harder.
As I was meditating on giving my core value a hard time staying, I was shaking and I felt several "shocks" going through my body. I went to sleep shortly after, because I had to attend a class early next day. The school day was pretty normal except that I was solving the tasks me and my partner had so fast that he couldnt catch up. I thought it was the result of me being more aware and in the moment. When I came home I started my pc as usual. But I felt so much dissonance starting WoW. I asked myself: "What is the reason of me playing that game?" I could not find a logical answer. So I quit Wow instantly. As a result of asking myself these questions, I now:
- Stoped playing games
- Stoped watching any kind of entertainment related material
- Eat healthier
- Clean up my room regulary
- Stoped drinking alkohol and coffee
- Do not feel the need to go to partys
This list goes on, but some of the things I could add might not be interesting or are too detailed/private. I never thought I ve clicked really. I thought I just had a big boost of awareness and the click is yet to come. Just today I answered myself the three questions. And I was surprised that my answer to all these three was yes. I was to fucking busy with rethinking and questioning everything that I didn't realized that I clicked.
I am aware that there is the possibility that I pseudo clicked but I am pretty sure this is not the case.
The click changed my life entirely. It made me a better person and makes me working on myself automaticly/naturaly to be the best version of myself I can possibly be.
My biggest adivce to the people who didn't click yet is: Stop sitting on your lazy ass. Ask yourself where your doubts are comming from and why they are emerging. Be brutally honest to yourself! The pain will tell you how miserable the rest of your life would have been. What emerges from that is the insight of what is important in your life.
This is my first reddit post and english is not my native language. So I am sorry for my spelling mistakes and the formatting in this post. Still I hope this post was helpful for some of you. I wish you guys the best." source
PreClick Core Value:
"I think i clicked last Monday while watching the stream. It was the new guy & Athene talking and for the first time in my life i was honest to myself. I realized that i had an ego and that my self image is pure subjective. This realization was one of the most huge reliefs.
So i found out that my core value was most likely comfort. I recently tried to push logic as a new core value but that didn't work. So what helped me was letting go, not trying too hard. I also was completely honest to myself that on a fundamental level i did not want to click. However i would not stop trying but i would keep trying in a more smooth way attacking the problem from different angles simply debunking the things that my inner child was afraid of. After so much debunking, from myself & from i understood that logic on an emotional level is the fundamentals of everything, so why would i have anything else as my core value. Logic is what even gives the ability to experience comfort. This is where i turned off the stream to go do whatever it was that i had to do.
I think all the talk about the inner child, how simple & stupid it is helped me alot, watching vods etc.
I just had the most productive week in a long time, all chores, all productivity completed on autopilot.
Since i have a bad bacteria imbalance in the gut my main focus is to fix this, get healthy while managing college. When i get healthy its gg and i i can do anything. While beeing "sick" i will play things safe, basically having an income." source
PreClick Core Value:
"So, for future reverence and own experience I will describe my situation as best as I can. this means that my post will be quite long but maybe it’s nice to see the complete process I went through. I will try my best to give all the information I can. Any related questions will be answered and any tips will be taken serious.
If have been active on the Stream quite some while, but only the last couple of months I started to listen to the realtalk podcast. The first podcast that had an impact ( if you want to call it that) had a topic about how you can change your thinking can be adjusted. Like people who have a mental depression can get better at feeling depressed, but it also works the other way around. (podcast number 22) This changed my thinking pattern quite some at that time. That is the time where I went some deeper into the real talk and re-listened them all, for at that time there was a small break in the making of new podcasts. I looked up a lot of the things that were mentioned and started to act. The first thing I did was working out on a weekly basis. At the time, I also got a better sleep rhythm and started to eat less meat, back to 2-3 times a week.
Although I followed to real talk ever since I never had the complete devotion to go all the way. But I was still curious and went to get the book “the power of now” and started to read in that. It has some good practical ways to get you in the now and get you more aware. I started to use meditation at this point. Around the time I finished the book I started to realize that there was more to the real talk then I originally thought. The points Athene made came a cross in multiple ways with the book in a more scientific way than spiritual as the book intents. As being a bit critical of some kind of god (in a religious way) I liked the more scientific approach. Soon after I picked up Athene’s book “ real answers” Around the time podcast 45 I started to hit a wall. I found my core value (comfort) but I couldn’t get emotional with logic. Around this time, I started to become fed-up sometimes why I could not have this click that other people would seems to have. What was I doing wrong? After this I also started to watch a series called “ Cosmos” (2014) as I already had some connection with logic I really liked the series. Specially the last episode.
I found out that was already using more logic in everything I did, so I did sense I trusted it more as I worked with it to explained flawed behavior and change it around to some extent. Now after all this I will come to the point of where it just kind of happened, I was traveling to work and listening to podcast number 53. And some times when I hear there is more to it but I can’t fully absorb it, I would go back to it some other time. In this case the next day. This explained very clearly how to trust and love logic as if it is a god. After this I meditated on that until I got I said to myself “ I don’t have to trust in myself anymore” And in just a fraction of time everything changed. I Experienced great relieve and started to make all kinds of connections. Like” why even drink alcohol, I don’t need that” or “why even eat meat, there are so much other options and it makes no sense to do so” these where not only thoughts but I experienced it as a must. Things you can’t deny. I have a great Euphoric feeling specially the first day. But I still am happy for no specific reason. I start to notice how the world seem to have more depth as if a gray filter was removed from my eyes and started to see how beautiful everything is. I also noticed that I confidence grew and I was not scared anymore of what people would think of me. Now I only have experienced this 3 days as I write this so I can understand you could be sceptic. But I can tell you that so far I had no urge to do anything illogical.
Shortly after my experience I had a talk with Athene on skype to discuss my state of mind, he was thinking I might only have had Identity death, but as I also want to do logical things It does not seem like it. I will continue to build my trust in logic like the logicnation.org website says.
So What I would like to ask is, What do Clickers think of this experience, is it like what other people go through. And if you think I have not clicked what is your best explanation for it? Like I said, I am here to learn and share so please share your experience and idea’s so other people might be able to use it as well.
Now you can see the steps I took to get where I am and I hope it can help some people. It might be good to see how my entire process went and not just a simple Q&A structure." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hi, I'm 26 years old and I am from Spain. About 1 month ago I started to watch Athene's real talk by chance. I wanted to give my twitch prime subscription to someone that would make good use of the money so my idea was to enter the stream, subscribe and leave. I never saw the real talk, and I remember that when I joined the streaming Athene was talking about how death sentence was not good or bad, it depended on the country, the society, the situation... I wanted to hear his whole opinion so I stayed. Then he started solving all question that chat threw at him talking about logic. I remembered his video of “ This is the most important video I've ever made ”. I saw that video and really liked his ideas, but didn't fully understand his core value. Now he had my attention so I watched the next streamings.
So at this point that clicking thing didn't start yet until some days later Katarina clicked. So there was no 4 steps method or whatever, we only had Athene's insights and some guidelines to do it.
So I went for it and the first thing I did was analyze my life and what guided me on the past. At the beginning I could not specify what was my core value since as much as I thought the result was always the same, a little of each. So finally I understood that everyone have desires and seek the same things most of the time, but only one of these things are what guide and reward them. So I reduced it to two options: Comfort and self validation.
Comfort: The most logical idea for me was to think that my core value was comfort since I felt rewarded for not doing anything too important and just relaxing, playing videogames, watching a movie or whatever. But when I started going deeper I found problems. For example, this summer I got a temporal job which made me work 12 hours every day during almost two months, and it was a pretty physically exhausting job. I had no real problems doing it, so I was confused at first. I didn't have a real need to do this job since I had some money already and I live with my parents, but I did it anyway, so I thought maybe comfort was not my real core value.
Self validation. I never needed validation from people generally. Even I've never been shy or depressive, going through my past I realised that I had less self esteem than I thought. So some of the things that I did on my life was to prove me that I could do them, or that I had value. At first I thought that maybe it was just validation from people and I didn't want to admit it, but I've put myself in dangerous situations sometimes to help people, like in fights or arguments, and there was nobody to see me and I didn't even talked about it so much after these things happened so people would validate me. So for me it didn't translate to seeking validation from people, but from myself. I did these things for good reasons, but aswell to get validation from me. So I started thinking, maybe what I did for comfort it was actually to feed my own validation. So for example videogames. I always liked hard and competitive games, and I've been good at them, so maybe it was not comfort, it was self validation seeking from doing something that I'm good at. That would be a good reason, for example, to play videogames and not basketball. I like both, but I'm good at videogames. So translating it to this last job I wrote about, maybe I just wanted to see if I was able to do it.
I was stuck on these ideas for a couple of days. I finally came to the conclusion that I was overthinking it too much, and it was just comfort. I did the job because it would provide me 4 or 5 times the money that I would win in a month doing a computer technician job, so I could be in my comfort position again. Self validation was there aswell but what really rewarded me emotionally was comfort. So if you guys have doubts between some core values try to find what did really make you feel good. A good trick aswell is to think where did you have more duality, what made you feel more dissonance. For example, for me confort made me feel rewarded, but after playing videogames all day or hanging out with my friends, when I went to sleep I used to think “another wasted day”. My rational part was not in line with my emotional part.
So after realising my core value was flawed change just came naturally. The night I clicked I felt overwhelmed. I could not even sleep thinking about my life and rediscovering every choice I made. I was afraid to lose this mind state but next morning I still had it. So as I said, four steps didn't exist yet, but the natural next thing to do was to start being productive. I started studying on my own about neuroscience, improving my english, working out...
Two days later I had a cold. I had fever and thinking clearly was harder for me. So the next day I thought that maybe it was logic to just relax and do mindless shit for some hours since I could not be productive even if I wanted. So I just went with my friends again and played some games. When I was healthy again after some days I already had lost the click. I kept doing logical things, but I didn't feel rewarded, I just wanted to go back to my comfort bubble.
Next two weeks, even I was playing videogames and doing mindless shit I kept studying from time to time with the hope of getting back my click. I could not do it, I didn't feel so much dissonance as before and it was being really hard. So I started thinking again that maybe I was confused about my core value. I felt like I did not accomplish anything at all. I struggled for days and I could not manage to find where was the problem.
So two days ago I was talking with a friend about logic. He, as most people do, just went full defensive mode as soon as I started questioning most people core values and pinpointing the flaws and started claiming that I was being brainwashed or something, but like all people, with no arguments, just because what I was talking about sounded too strange. Also he is the kind of person that justifies things with “it doesn't matter, when we die anything will matter anyway”... So I remembered something I read, the quantum inmortality. As he doesn't know anything about quantum mechanics I started explaining him how particles are not governed by the same rules as macro objects, how they don't respect time for example. Then I talked with him a little bit about Schrodinger cat and, after some explanations and giving him some insights, I could show him this quantum inmortality theory.
When I finished my explanation, unconsciously, I realised how cool was all that shit. I felt the role that logic was following on these explanations. I saw for the first time logic different, more beautiful. Then I realised I clicked, and this was a real one. My problem was not about my core value, or how to replace it. I was overthinking it too much and not focusing on the true issue that was not trusting logic.
I understood what happened the first time I clicked. I realised how shitty was my core value, this was easy. The problem was that I replaced it with logic just because Athene told us, not because I understood logic. That's why I lost it so easily, I could not see logic as something good.
So my advice for people is this. Forget about Athene. Don't click because he said it. You will realise that your core value sucks, that's easy. But if you replace it with logic before doing step one you are fucked, for real. It will be so much harder because you will lose it and getting it back is a pain in the ass.
So now I can think so much clearly, it is incredible what click made me not only in a emotional level, but intellectually aswell. Is like I don't have to filter my ideas through ego, or thinking that something that I will say can damage my image or things like that. There is no more noise. If you think that this is brainwashing... oh man, I'm sorry for you, and I mean it. You will miss this state of mind only for your ego, because if the click is real you'll have to admit that you have been wrong all your life. It is easier to think that people is being brainwashed.
So my next step will be to restructure my mind, apply to join Athene's crew and work hard. There is no choice! And this might sound weird, but having no choice is a good thing in this case :)
Good luck guys! Don't give up!" source
"I feel like I've gotten a new man"
PreClick Core Value:
"I am 23 years old, I live in Norway, and am originally from Ukraine.
I still have quite some dopamine rush, and I felt like I had to share this experience with others, therefore the text itself is not well written, but bear with me.
Ive been listening to Athenes podcasts and realtalk series for a year now, without really listening to what he had to say, until 5 days ago.
I live in a flat with my girlfriend, studying bachelor in nutrition on the internet. 5 days ago I went to my parents by train to visit them for 3 days. The day before I noticed that for the first time I could really listen to what Athene and his crew had to say but I didnt take much notice to this sensation.
While sitting on the train I decided to read everything on the logic wiki. After reading through logic wiki I decided to listen to the podcasts from #46 to #54, for the first time I was really intrigued, no longer treating podcasts as just "information". Half way in to podcast #50 it hit me, I was really close to clicking, I had the dopamine rush into my brain, and I felt euphoric, I was so happy that I think I frightened some people on the train. I soon realized that I was scared to death, I was going home to my parents house for the weekend, to the birth of my comfort bubble, the timing couldnt be worse.
Being at my parents house I felt so much dissonance that I couldnt enjoy my stay there, not that I didnt enjoy seeing my family again, but we have a tradition to drink some beer and alcohol beverages in the weekends, and eat lots of food which in many aucations wasnt healthy. That weekend I ended up drinking less than half a beer(under 250ml). It wasnt hard to explain to my family that I no longer wanted to drink alcohol and easily supported me in the matter.
Sitting on the train back home the real click happened, I started from Podcast #51, as I wanted to create quite some dissonance. I listened all the podcasts until the end, and clicked while listening to podcast #54, my core value is comfort, and my self esteem is quite low, and this podcast was just on point for me. While listening to it I explained to my inner child(which I imagined as a ghost I couldnt see the face of, and was shaped as a little baby)that this shouldnt be scary for it and that adopting logic as my new core value served both of our survival. I started crying a little, and felt a relief, a relief Ive never felt before, also I felt true happiness as I remember it from when I was little. After the click Ive been doing logical stuff all day to get my reward center going, and to restructure both my life and my brain for the better.
I cleaned the whole flat in a little over one hour, canceled my subscription in all of the games and sold all of my game characters and virtual cash on them. I will not bore you telling about every little thing I did, but as my girlfriend stated today, and I quote "I feel like Ive gotten a new man". I was afraid to tell her, as even though she is smart she is also a sceptic, but I was to euphoric to wait. After I told her she wants the click to, as even though there is a little skepticism in her, she stated "Even though it seems to be too good to be true, I see the change in you, thus this cant be bullshit, as it works and its real."
Having logic as a core value is not like I thought it would be. I experience close to choice less awareness as my reward center now gets stimulated by doing logical things, and contradicting this gives me immense dissonance, and also some fear of loosing it as a core value, which I literally never want to happen.
I could never thank Athene and the crew enough for this amazing insight, as words cant yet describe how grateful I am. Also I cant wait for the documentary, it will be epic!
A list of what helped my click:
- Uninstalling distracting apps on my phone(I even had to uninstall Spotify as I used music as a distraction, dreaming about things which I was imposing to myself by my validation seeking mentality)
- NO distractions while listening to the podcasts, listening to the stream or reading the Logic Wiki.
- Truly opening my mind without bias and listen(being honest to yourself).
- Asking questions about why you feel like you feel and why you ask the questions in the first place.
- Keep asking questions even though it becomes really uncomfortable, dont stop until you hit the bottom.
- Dont be embarrassed by yourself. (Crying etc)
- Watching Cosmos(AGAIN, WITHOUT DISTRACTIONS, you have to value science and the beauty of the logic emotionally)
This is what I got of my mind right now, will make a more complete list later. Hope this helps! Happy clicking :)!" source
"I'm no longer Borderline"
PreClick Core Value:
"Hi, I'm a lurker and I watched Athene since he was playing Hearthstone a year ago or somewhere at that time, I liked his style because he was a troll and I was a troll a well, I even trolled myself, I suffered from borderline personality disorder mixed with schizoid personality disorder which means that I had problems with maintaining any meaningful relationship if even any relationships at all, I was emotionless most of the time with a mix with occasional irritation, my personality was switching to various states, I felt no identity. Everything changed after I tried to click, at first when I saw clicking streams like a month ago or so I just ignored it and moved on because it sounded stupid but some time later for some reason I watched one of the streams, I watched the click video and I was pretty sure that it was one of his next troll gigs but Athene didn't seem to be trolling, I gave it a try.
It was hard due to my disorders, my personality could mimic a different states of minds which meant that I had to recognize if the click was just my personality mimic or it was the true click, as a borderline I also made a very illogical decisions which was another problem. description how it went:
Step1: By trusting in logic I watched some Stephen Hawkin's videos to understand the universe around us, I contemplated on our existence and I acknowledged that logic is us, we exist because of logic. Step2/3: Yes, it was comfort but mixed with anger and self destruction, I wanted the world to burn and I was a vile person, I identified these core values instantly because I was working on them for some time on a psychoterapy with no success, I them with logic, I acknowledged that they are just a creations of my twisted mind, people are not evil because they like to but because they are lacking logic and they act on their emotions leading to self destructive actions. Step4: I clicked, I felt euphoria and I walked to a mirror starting talking to myself that all of this time I was imprisoned in my mind and that now I see everything so clearly, I promised to myself that from now on I will do everything that is logical. So I did, everytime I asked myself what's the most logical thing I can do at the moment and I did it. I feel no longer burdened and no anxiety, no lack of personality, I think from a logical perspective and from other's people perspective, I live here and now.
I have question to the community, I heard Athene's talking something about applying, if you can feel me in that would be appreciated." source
"My wife and child are happier and we are creating better experiences and working together."
PreClick Core Value:
"I guess my original post was never saved. Here is my repost of my click. 33 Male NA - Father Was watching the stream October 21st when Athene reminded me of a piviotable part in my life where I was redefining my identity and questioning everything. He mentioned he spent time talking about the Theory of Everything, quantum mechanics, and multiworlds possibilty. I used this to overcome a dramatic change in my life that left me feeling sad and without identity. Starting off in the world on my own at 18 and my family being torn apart. So I used my understanding and reasoning as a tool and had a dark view of possibilities that made me believe nothing mattered and I could do whatever I wanted with confidence. I ended up developing a core value in comfort with this success with rationalization as a tool (not logic). This made it hard for me to click at first but I could see that I was missing and not feeling complete. When I identified this key moment it was easier to let go of that identity and all that was left was my faith in logic. Now I have the best understanding of my purpose I see and have better connections with my wife and my child. My wife and child are happier and we are creating better experiences and working together. I thought I cared about my family before but now I can see this way of life is the best way I can be for my family. If you are looking to click an especially if you are father and want some guidance I would be more than glad to help you." source
"My wife and child are happier and we are creating better experiences and working together."
PreClick Core Value:
"I clicked 2 days ago for me it was hard to click I always tried to make sense with discipline but I always fell back on my old core value. But since Athene was talking about logic I tried to think about it I didn't really get what Athene meant with logic then I questioned my self and made a Word document and asked questions if logic was the right core value. But I had a wrong view on logic that's why i didn't understand it. I couldn't understand how 'logic' could work or do everything but the reason why I didn't understand it was because I looked at logic from my old core value how it could help me being more comfortable and that's how I understood why I tried to gain knowledge all these months from the realtalk was just for validation I didn't want it but I did it with descipline. So how did i click? Well since I wanted to click for a long time but fell back into my old core value. I was reading "guide for people that clicked" on logicnation and that made me click. I can't remember how but for a moment I felt very happy and blessed it felt like i saw the light I just wanted to do logical stuff I can't play games or do something retarded just feels that i don't have the control to do these things. One of the things that helped me alot for not falling back into my old core value was this line "If you do something illogical that is correlated with your previous core value, you can either try to find the reason why you were emotionally drawn to do it or you can rationalize an excuse that you deem logical. Doing the latter will not solve the issue." I always tried to make excuses to do things in of my old core value. When I realized this that I was making excuses to do the things from my old core value I kept falling back into it. Since i realized this I could not make excuses anymore. I still have the thoughts after 2 days but I try to do the 4th step (doing logical stuff) all the time. And again the Guide for people that clicked helped me alot! This was the most important moment in my life guys don't that this for granted just try it if it doesn't not work don't give up I almost did but it was worth everything." source
After my first post I decided to make another and explain my experiences while clicking and (this post is actually for people that didn't click please try to finish this). What you can expect to read is what effects it had on my life so far. And what helps me the most.
I'm trying to explain you how it went when I clicked also try to explain some important stuff. And i recommend you to read the four steps: [/logicnation.org/wiki/Main%20Page 4STEPS]
*1. Critical thinking.
*2. Control over your emotions.
*3. Realize that your current core value brings harm.
*4. The changes since I've clicked.
1. Let me explain my experiences with the click. After I made the click I tried to do things that were logical to me with my current understanding. Some people do not understand why this is important, it is because doing logical stuff is more in line with what you are. That means what we have been doing the past centuries is evolving we didn't just evolve for no reason. Humans have always tried to understand everything but inter-subjectivereality (ISR) has distracted us for some amount of time but with this core value you cant be distracted anymore because you are trying to understand everything and start critical thinking. With critical thinking you can try to understand alot of things but you need some knowledge. How did I use critical thinking. Critical thinking you actually can do with everything i'll give an example when Athene said "you should come over because that is the most logical thing to do because you can spread the awareness here more efficient" at that moment you try to understand and critical think about it. So the day that I clicked that night I was thinking for 2 hours in my bed I couldn't sleep because I was thinking that if there are more efficient ways to spread it (ofcourse you also have to come to the conclusion that spreading is the most efficient thing to do and that is up to you to figure that out) so when I was thinking about it I tried to have a better way to spread this awareness. And I came to the conclusion that I should start my own team like Athene and spread it from another community. But after half an hour I realized that if I join the crew I can do that aswell and I already have the people around me that have the right mindset. At that moment I realized that the most effective thing to do was joining the team/house. This is one of the examples I'm giving you guys to make it clear.
2. So when I clicked I quit playing games and watching videos of people that play video games, for entertainment purposes. ([/logicnation.org/wiki/Guide%20for%20people%20that%20clicked You can have control over your thoughts and emotions])But I still had the thoughts to play games but when I realized that the thoughts aren't mine they just pop up automatically. It is because your old core value isn't gone yet it's still there but with the fourth step you try to make your logical core value over rise the comfort one and how do you do that well actually just like all the years you've been doing comfortable stuff and when you play games you are happy you do the same with logic you keep doing logical stuff and at some point you don't have to think (well actually when your core value is logic you try to find what is most logical thing to do, not like you don't have to think anymore) about what is logical like the comfort one you just start up the pc impulsively and do the most comfortable stuff so how you can do that with logic just keep doing logic stuff what makes most sense. So I followed the [/logicnation.org/wiki/Main%20Page fourth step] even when my friends asked to play games I just said no and tried to explain them about the click. I know for people that did not click this is going to sound like boring life but the reason you think that is because your core value is most likely comfort that means when you watch tv or play video games and relax your [/logicnation.org/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DReward%20system%26action%3Dedit%26redlink%3D1 reward center]gets stimulated that means you are happy at that moment. But when someone tries to get you out of your comfort zone like when your mom tells you to put the trash outside or when someone confronts you with your actions, you don't accept it or get pissed it's because you want to stay in your comfort bubble (I've also been through this because my core value was comfort) but this is all flawed. Because when your core value is logic and you do logical stuff you become happy aswell. It's very hard to understand this for an outsider I've been through it aswell. Because when your core value on an emotional level is logic and when you do logical stuff your [/logicnation.org/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DReward%20system%26action%3Dedit%26redlink%3D1 reward center] gets stimulated. That's why when you do something logical you become happy.
3. What also helped me alot was the [/logicnation.org/wiki/Main%20Page thirth step] this actually means that you look at your past and find the moments when your core value went against yourself or the environment. That means when you just wanted to stay comfortable you harm yourself or the environment aswell. Like with me I can try to give some examples. I rarely helped my mother with cleaning the house or making food since it went against my core value (comfort) because either I wanted to play games or I didn't do the things I did not like and the things I did not liked were the things that had a conflict with my core value. Since I've clicked I can make food with plessure or clean my room because it's logical to do those things.
4. The changes since I've clicked:
- Started to critical think and tried to understand everything
- No validation seeking mindset
- No need for attention
- Can move my butt without problems
- Clear minded
- Smarter (What I've noticed this weak was that I prejudged no one I just try to understand the information they're telling me not how they say it or who is saying it. Before the click I couldn't explain people about somethings but I've noticed that I can just explain the click without problem maybe because I fully get it)
If there are any flawed ideas I'd love to hear it." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hello Guys and Girls!
My name is Hrube, I'm 20 years old and I'm from Hungary. I study computer engineering at university. Today in the afternoon I sat down on my sofa ready to make the click.
How did I start it?
Before everything I have read the logicnation wiki to make sure how to proceed with the experience. Mind you I have been trying to do this for 2 weeks now. (Although I have never sat down for this long of a period.) After I sat down in a comfortable position I decided to do the two guided meditation for part 1 and part 2.
I have started loving logic when I was about 17 years old. Until that point I was your typical "I hate math, this doesn't make any sense" etc. kid. What really helped me here is watching Cosmos (2014) [This is really great], documentation about fractal geometry, and the Fibonacci sequence video.
Now this wasn't as easy as I thought it will be. I had doubts whether I had comfort as my core value or fitting in. What really helped me here is talking with my inner-child. I envisioned it like it's in the meditation guide. A child holding a teddy bear. What I did was the following: I went on a journey with him on "our" past. Everything I remembered from my childhood I brought it up to him, stopped the frame, and asked why did we do this? Each time he answered I got closer to the realization that my core value was comfort.
Now this was the hardest hands down. I continued talking with my inner child. I interrogated him about our past and what we achieved with it in the present. I showed him the flaws of the "teddy bear"(comfort) and how easily we could be greater if what he hold onto was logic instead. At one point I felt like almost shouting at my core value and really felt bad (I think it was the defense mechanism). Then I introduced another character to my inner child. Logic imagined as "God". I made God show him how crazy it is that we are alive and we exists. How beautiful life really is and how everything is connected to the beauty of our universe.
And at that moment for a second all picture in my head was gone. Everything turned to black. The next thing I felt was sudden twitching in my brain and my body. It was really frightening at first but after a few seconds as I opened my eyes I felt at ease and extreme happiness engulfed my body.
Now I feel like I must do things that makes sense. I will wait a few days and see if it's real or placebo but I doubt the latter." source
PreClick Core Value:
"I am a 24-year-old Canadian working in the US as a Software Development Engineer at one of the big tech companies. My previous core value was comfort. The four to five days after my click experience have been quite transformative and this post goes into my detailed experience with Step 3 and highlights of the aftermath. Step 3 was one that I struggled a lot with especially due to how fortunate I am in my current position.
On November 2, 2016, I first viewed Athene's video on Logic Nation describing the four steps. I was intrigued enough and started considering whether to go through this process. I had been subscribed to Athene's YouTube channel back when he was regularly releasing the BTS clips and following ever since as a lurker. Later this year in March, I had in been heavily listening to his Real Talk podcasts and started implementing some of the insights raised into practice. Unfortunately, I eventually lost the momentum as I fell back to comfort within two months. At the time, of course, I was not aware of the core value mechanic.
Soon enough, it became quite clear that four-step process actually solves the fundamental problem by correcting it at the root cause level. This seemed very much the same process as solving any sort of bug in code. And thus, it appealed to my rational part of the brain. The emotional side, which I never fully acknowledged before, was not that cooperative, to say the least.
There were two key moments or phases for me for Step 3. Metaphorically, the first phase was the discovery of the key and the second phase was unlocking the door.
Leading up to this phase, I tried many things. The things to highlight were:
- Consuming the [/logicnation.org/wiki/Content%20to%20help%20you%20appreciate%20logic content for helping you appreciate logic].
- Going through all the episodes of [/logicnation.org/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DCosmos%3A%20A%20Spacetime%20Odyssey%26action%3Dedit%26redlink%3D1 Cosmos] and emotionally connecting to them. There were moments that tears were falling from my eyes.
- Riccardo's talk on the last episode of Cosmos sparked me to rewatch the last episode gain. Though I noticed that the emotional intensity was lessened.
- Rafael's translation of Christians introduced some useful phrases which could be used as some sort of mantra.
The thing that starting giving me progress in tackling my core value was writing.
Writing down past events, drilling down on the reasons for my chosen actions at the time, and uncovering that they were related to my core value was the catalyst I needed to connect heavy dissonance with comfort in Step 3. This occurred on Nov. 19th and another tool to be able to achieve this breakthrough was acquired from Podcast #46, Think For Yourself. I first began writing out the insights in the first half of that episode in my own words and began truly thinking about it on whether it made sense or not. This will take some time, but it is worth it. Then I applied this level of thinking on my past asking "why" questions and pausing to feel whether I was emotionally being affected. Once I had found a weak point, I drilled down on it by flooding my inner child with more examples from the past that I knew comfort held me back. I could really feel in my heart area a deep pressure that I can associate with a breaking of some sort of emotional attachment that you heavily identified with. My eyes were watering at this point which I took as another good indicator of progress. At this point, I left my desk to sit on the coach to really focus in on this negative feeling reiterating on each example in my past. The intensity plateaued at a certain point, but I was still going on keeping the negativity for a while just in case I did not reach the right intensity point.
Then, without really realizing it, I made a connection. There was one really good friend I had known from undergrad that came into my mind and the following flooded my mind:
- This friend that I knew was someone who had a very strong passion for Mathematics and Physics.
- He wanted to prove and understand everything for himself.
- In some regards, he was quite ahead of most students in the university program I was in.
- And, he was quite advanced because of his drive for logic.
I was shocked as I found the key into making the needed leap of fate for logic. I was so surprised that this key was in me all this time and I never knew it. I then envisioned logic as a very close long-lost forgotten friend that I just met in a very long while. I was choking at intense joy with eyes watering. I then promoted this embodiment of logic to a higher level being, and finally realizing that it was really just me. I was logic.
At the time I was making this connection, I observed the following:
- My hands, which were held together, started feeling an immense tingling sensation and that feeling started to propagate to my arms and legs to a lesser degree.
- Blood rushed into my head and my body started truly feeling the cold air in my room. (I did not realize that I did not have the heat on until then).
- The room all the sudden was noticeably brighter as if someone had just turned on the dim lights I had onto an even brighter setting.
- As my vision came to focus, everything seemed clearer, and my thoughts were in complete silence.
- Any pressure in my head dissipated completely.
The intense joy lasted a few moments, and as I calmed down, I truly felt the silence in my apartment still with a mild tingling sensation throughout the body. This sensation did not last long. I began wondering whether I had experienced the click. I had an urge to begin doing something productive that made sense. I accepted the uncertainty that this was a placebo and just operated under the assumption that I had indeed clicked and began going through the [/logicnation.org/wiki/Guide%20for%20people%20that%20clicked guide for people that clicked].
I tried writing everything on that guide with my own words in my notebook and pondering on whether it made sense, and talked to myself aloud seeing if I could explain it properly. This process actually helped a lot to truly understand the insights contained in the guide.
When I got to the fact that the human brain consists of a 100 billion neurons, I wanted to find where that fact came from. I found a source that contradicted this stating the human brain was on average 86 billion neurons. I started seeing the power of thinking for yourself.
Eventually, I reach the section about having control over your thoughts and emotions. I began to understand that insight and how powerful it was. I went to bed at around 11:30 PM and set an alarm for 7:00 AM. The next morning as soon as the alarm sounded, I immediately woke up and started on my morning routine without any effort. Before, I would have had eight different alarms set across an hour or two for the time I wanted to wake up and always struggled to get up. I was surprised by how easy this was.
I continued through the morning by going through the guide. The section titled [/logicnation.org/wiki/Guide%20for%20people%20that%20clicked "Step-by-step process on how to deal with the dissonance"] was an important insight that actually helped me achieve a much more intense emotional experience which brings me on to phase two.
Eventually, my mom called me and we talked for an hour. That conversation had generated considerable inner conflict. I was talking to her about how I could perhaps eventually want to do something on my own and not work for anyone. Both saying that and her response generated quite a bit of inner conflict within me. I was not sure what I was going to do and I had doubts on whether I clicked or not. Right after the call, I employed the step-by-step process on how to deal with the dissonance. I captured everything in my notebook about this process. This may help for those that get into a similar situation. I captured the following:
My feelings after the call:
- Some inner pain, a feeling of uncertainty, confusion, of something wrong, it feels like fear
Some thoughts that appear are:
- "You are not good enough!"
- "You are fooling yourself, quitting your job is insane, you would struggle to do anything. You would ruin your career."
- "You do not know what you are doing."
- "You will fail."
I then started debunking why I was feeling this way:
"It is because I am afraid of the change that will be caused if I change jobs. It is just my core value getting simulated even though safety in comfort is flawed. Logic gives and provides for more safety than what my old value could ever provide. Because with logic, I can rely on myself. My-fucking-self. Not anyone, but myself."
Also, my mom during the call had given examples in the past were starting your own business was caused issues for my family members such as my father, uncle, and my grandparents. I began debunking this as that was causing me quite of bit of dissonance. Effectively, fear was being instilled in me, which would definitely hold me back and trap me in a comfort bubble.
But, as I was writing my thoughts, I noticed a shift within. A shift towards a warm feeling that logic was really there for me. Memories of my friend as being the key to the puzzle entered into my working memory.
This resulted in receiving a burst of euphoria that was much more intense than I had felt before. My hands were tingling and that sensation spread throughout my hands to my arms, head, and legs. It was a truly emotional experience and I knew at the moment that I wanted to capture this on camera just in case it would be useful later on. Very interestingly, seeing my own image in this state on the screen had resulted in positive feedback loop. This is because when I repeatedly saw myself in this state on my laptop, I would realize that indeed this is occurring for real. That had further triggered an even larger wave of happiness and excitement. This had repeated in cycles for some time. This effect could be connected with mirror neurons in the brain and seems like an interesting mechanic.
To summarize the possible effect:
This experience continued on for 55 minutes until the effect had subsided. During capturing myself in this clip, I was talking aloud which seemed to really help and contribute to the experience. I have this footage available to share if it would be of any positive value.
One interesting related tangent that I experienced today:
Before the click, I had always hated how my voice sounded and how I looked on video for many different reasons, some of which I am actively solving post-click. Today, when I played back one or two recent videos of myself, I no longer experience that immediate reaction of despising my image. Instead, I felt as if I look at the video as an outsider would. I have experienced similar phenomena in the last few days. Mainly, people around me are are beginning to feel a part of me. In the past, I would experience some anxiety when I came into unexpected situations that had the chance of speaking with some stranger. That is no longer is the case. Instead, the people I walk past by, for example on the street, seem different and then they ever did before as if we were connected at some level. I would attribute this to really absorbing the insights in the guide, applying the steps of dealing with unwanted thoughts and emotions from your previous core value, and reflecting what you really are.
Here are some of the other things I have experience post-click:
- My sleep pattern was immediately fixed:
- Before, waking up was painful, involved many alarms, and could take half an hour to an hour after the first alarm.
- After, I am consistently going to bed just before midnight and waking up at 7:00 AM with little effort.
- Working out becomes quite easy:
- Before. I was not working out and never really wanted to.
- On Sunday, I felt the urge to go the gym and just run as it seemed it would give me the highest EV at the moment.
- This continued throughout the week of going to the gym and working on cardio.
- I immediately see the value pay off, this is insane.
- Eating habits have been corrected:
- Several weeks before the click, I stopped eating meat. As a consequence, I started losing weight because I typically missed meals and meat was compensating it.
- Now, I am eating much more consistently and enough. And, I can see that my weight is getting corrected.
- Interestingly, I do not mind cold water when I enter showers whereas before I would naturally retract at the touch of cold as it was uncomfortable.
- Distractions and entertainment have gone. I do not even need to listen to music to stay concentrated anymore, it just flows naturally.
- My emotional intelligence is notable increased. I am much more aware of my emotions. This was important when dealing with remnants of the past.
- I feel dissonance when I encounter things that do not make sense and strive to find out why without much effort.
- There are several little improvements I have been making to my daily workflow to improve my efficiency. Little things that add up. e.g. my morning routine is faster leaving me an extra half an hour.
- I now think in terms of what will give the highest EV at the moment. Reflecting on before the click, it seems quite blind to go on life without such a mindset.
There were some of the major setbacks that I had to solve during the first few days. Here are some described:
- I experienced inner conflict during the days I went to work this week. The dissonance was being triggered for various reasons, mostly the following:
- My work environment had many things that triggered my past, so I had to solve unwanted emotions produced by existing neural connections from the past. This actually increased my trust in logic over time especially and I quickly remembered not to identify with it.
- As my awareness expanded, the illogical behaviors that others in my environment were somewhat becoming a part of me. I was actively looking for solutions how I could solve these issues of those around me because that would actually be a higher expected value. This was a very interesting realization for me.
- Being curious about the attention the recently-released documentary had lead me into reading several negative comments. This triggered emotions within that posed some challenges to solve, but I was able to solve them eventually by critical thinking about the concerns I had.
Emotional intelligence is quite important when dealing with such setbacks. Meditation from experience has been a great tool in the regard during this past few days.
At this stage, I have mostly finished with the click guide and will continue on restructuring my belief system and building my trust with logic even further. I am very thankful to see the tremendous improvements this as resulted in such a little time period. I have begun to realize the importance that the environment you are in has in the most real sense." source
PreClick Core Value:
PreClick Core Value:
"My Experience with “The Click”
Before I discuss my experience with the click, I will introduce myself. I am 18 years old, and live in Canada. I clicked on November 26th, 2016, in the early evening. I hope this description of my experience will be helpful for others who may be struggling with similar hurdles to myself, and who may have fears, concerns, or doubts about the clicking process. My description will first describe a major bottleneck, some negative habits I had before the click, and then my experience with the four-step process.
About two months ago, when I first started listening to the real talks, I began to adapt to a very logically structured lifestyle, which caused a placebo click. I thought I had achieved what Athene was speaking about, especially because I had several euphoric moments, but the trend did not hold. Although I changed several habits like my diet, and entertainment, I was still operating from a rational motivation. If I could only make one recommendation to help others along the process to clicking, it would be to focus on the emotion, because rationalization to avoid dissonance is very likely to fall apart.
Several negative habits (for myself) pre-click in no order:
- Unregulated diet (Vegetarian, but supplemented with excess sugar, processed)
- Although I meditated, it felt like an obligation
- Consumption of alcohol
- School (and grade) related stress
- Consumption of entertainment, purely for entertainments sake
- Checking my appearance in the mirror
- Spending money to improve my appearance (clothing, shoes, etc).
- Intellectual masturbation (among friends)
- (THE BIG ONE) Following several of the patterns of the inter subjective reality that is the average university.
Step 1: Developing an unconditional trust in logic
My Experience: Step one was reasonably simple for me complete. I had used logic as a tool throughout my life, and it had proven to be very effective (especially to pump up my intellectual ego, but I will get back to that later!). It was easy to connect logic to feeling happy, and I would do this by visualizing the way that logic is behind so many positive things, all the way from the care of a mother towards her child, (I used this example for myself because it was strongly emotional, which was important for me, as rational thinking had not worked in the past), to mathematical problem solving.
Tips for Step 1:
- If you currently use logic as a tool, try to connect the positive results of using logic to a positive emotion (and then later, you can work on replacing your existing core value – I needed baby steps).
- If logic is more abstract for you, try to follow positive emotions backwards, and often you may find that their source was based on a logical pattern. For example, for those who enjoy listening to music, enjoyment of a melody can be looked at as a connection between our brains reward center and mathematical relationships.
Step 2: Finding my emotional core value
My Experience: Step two was a challenge, and at times resulted in very negative emotions, but is absolutely worth the trouble. To identify my core value, I had to put every aspect of my life under scrutiny, as well as much of my past, and question my actions. At the beginning of the process I thought that my core value may have been knowledge, but this was far from the truth. During the questioning process, I tried to sit back and notice my tendencies. For example, throughout a normal day, I would assess why I was doing what I was doing. I questioned everything from my morning grumpiness to my tendency to zone out in a specific lecture, or the way I would have conversations with certain people versus others. This process created an extreme amount of dissonance. I began feeling angry about several of my habits (which was very useful for step 3). After about two weeks (quite long) I determined that my core value was comfort. I believe it took so long because I had constructed a shield around my self-esteem with my intellectual ability, which allowed me to find comfort very easily, and camouflaged the feeling of comfort into a sort of “superiority,” where I felt safe, high and dry above common struggles.
Tips for Step 2:
- If you are like me, and are finding it hard to identify your current core value, it is quite likely comfort. This is because when you are comfortable, you have less dissonance, and it can be challenging to pinpoint negative trends that may seem unrelated.
- Step 2 can be very unpleasant, although it can be a very helpful for step 3 to take note of this unpleasantness, and analyse why you may be having negative reactions to the scrutiny of your current life.
Step 3: Realizing that my current core value doesn’t provide as much safety as logic:
My Experience: Step three was by far the most explosive. I accomplished step three using semi-meditative strategies, alone, throughout the span of two days (climaxing with the click). My strategy was to write down two comprehensive lists. The first was a list of negative emotions, and where I believed they stemmed from. The second was a list of illogical, and nonsensical actions that I do regularly. I followed the elements of each list back to their source: my current core value. This was challenging for some, like the assessment of my stress related to achieving good grades, and easy for others, like my habit of watching television series at lunch time. Both lists, founded on the basis of comfort, were wildly misaligned with the objective reality. Using Athene’s recommendation of the “Yo-yo” effect, I would experience the pain and dissonance of my current value, and then visualize the way that logic could essentially destroy both lists. This process resulted in severe emotion, and had several physiological symptoms like sweating, shaking, volatile breath, and headaches (all of which may have also been caused by my irregular eating and exercise habits during these two days).
Finally, The Click: My click was very much a euphoric moment, but also extremely physiologically impactful. At the time, I was laying on the floor in the dark. The moment it happened, I felt very weightless, and began to smile and laugh. Instantly, I wanted to test it, so I put on my shoes on and ran out my door (it was dark, cold and raining at the time). The reason I chose to run is because under regular circumstances, I use running to escape, but this time I was going to scrutinize it. The euphoria continued, and as I moved along under massive trees and watched the rain fall in front of me I was overcome by a wonderful feeling: OBJECTIVITY IS ECSTASY. In that moment, I felt as though my reward center was being tied with the extent to which I am aligned with (and can understand) the objective reality, and by the same token, my acceptance of logic.
Tips for Step 3:
- Take advantage of dissonance. For example, in the same way that our bodies feel pain to help us avoid injury, experiencing dissonance can help us to pinpoint sources of, metaphorically, cognitive danger.
- I found meditation-like practices to be very helpful, like breathing exercises, which helped me to feel present, as opposed to being concerned about the future.
Step 4: Strengthening my trust in logic:
Step four is an ongoing process, and I intend to continue to make more and more logical decisions. Following the click, I have noticed a change in several habits.
Since clicking, I have:
- Had a much easier time finding a meditative state
- Reformed myself to a strict plant-based diet
- Begun to feel my social anxiety decrease
- Begun to feel ego fade very dramatically
- Lost my stress related to grades, and begun to focus solely on learning
- Begun to analyze the inter subjective environments that I exist within, and be deliberate about my actions within such realities.
- Felt driven to share this concept with others (although can be challenging with my novice rhetorical ability).
I would appreciate any and all feedback about this post, as well as scrutiny and criticism of any potential errors" source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hey guys how's it going? Wowlegend here bringing you a story. Today I want to talk a little about my click story. So I was going about life when I decided I want to click. The reason was because I was depressed and I was literally willing to do anything to get out of this depression. Basically I was trialling and erroring every self-help new age fad there was and none of it helped me. I thought hey, i have nothing to lose so I trialled this 'click' too. Best decision of my life by the way, there are some swear words in this but ya... warning profanity
I watched a stephen hawking documentary about black holes. Man, this blew my mind it was quite crazy. I felt so good.
My core value was playing games. All I did before this click was playing games all day. No wonder I was depressed! I wasn't helping anyone, I wasn't helping myself, I wasn't helping my family. Yes indeed, my core value was comfort.
Why am I doing this? I asked myself again and again and again. When I was playing LoL I wanted to play for social validation. I wanted to do good so my friends would say 'thanks for carrying me'. I wanted to get to diamond so my friends could say 'nice job man'. My core value was social validation.
Also do you guys know the game 'Undertale'? It's basically a game where you can choose to spare monsters or kill them. I was playing Undertale a lot also. Because I thought I was a Saint whenever I spared the monsters. I thought I was some sort of 'hero'. I was literally gaining self-worth by helping fictional characters.
I got off my lazy ass and went to work out, I started eating lentils. Buckwheat and oatmeal. I always knew the benefits of eating healthy, but I never applied them. After the click, I felt so happy, I felt I could just eat healthy so easy. I didn't need any 'motivation' anymore, like omg if you eat healthy you'll be successful or whatever. I just did it because it was the logical thing to do.
PreClick Core Value:
step 1: to start off, I struggled to even do step one. i felt watching documentaries was a waste of time. but i hated my 9-5 job of being a waiter. everyone treated me like shit while i was breaking my back, cleaning tables and picking up rubbish. everyday i would go home with a sore back, it was only getting worse and worse. i wanted a way out. anything--i tried many self-help things in the past, they didn't work. suddenly i felt a strong urge to try this clicking thing.
on a day where i was supposed to work, i didn't and went to the public library instead. i was lucky because you were only allowed to do educational stuff in the library. so i was forced to read the making sense reddit and logic nation wiki. i wasn't allowed to watch YouTube videos in the library so i had to read articles instead.
so i decided to do step one and read the recommended articles on the wiki. i especially enjoyed the Mathematics: The Beautiful Language of the Universe and Is the Universe Made of Math?
I was actually quite lucky to be reading this in the library. It was literally the perfect environment to read because everyone else in the library was also reading. If I was at home I surely would have just read like one paragraph and stopped. But the environment was perfect for reading and so I actually read the whole entire thing, focused, and read it till the very end.
After reading these two articles, I developed a serious unconditional trust in logic. I started seeing everything around me in maths equations and symbols, I realised that I was also a combination of maths equations and symbols. It was quite a surreal experience and quite euphoric. it was a very big catharsis
step 2 / 3: after reading these articles however, I got bored and started reading some japanese comics. When I was reading I experienced so much inner conflict and dissonance. I realised that I was reading this to feel comfortable. But I asked myself, what is the point? What will happen if I finish this story? This story isn't even real. The characters are fictional. A lot of bad things happen, then they get fixed. I'm literally creating problems by reading this comic, and then solving them by reading some more. Like for example, when the main character's girlfriend gets kidnapped by gangsters, that creates a problem which made me feel bad. Then after the main character defeats all the gangsters then he saves the girlfriend and makes mee feel good again. why am i allowing my happiness to be dictated by a fictional world created by some dude in an office? It's so artificial and so fake. It's not a fulfilling thing. I realised my core value is comfort. But I realised that to be comfortable I had to first create conflict. And I realised, wait a minute, that doesn't even make any sense. There has to be something more.
At this point I felt so depressed... As I kept reading, I felt more and more depressed because I realised it was causing me so much conflict. yet I kept reading.
Step 4: but then for some reason, something clicked. I put down the comic book. And I suddenly had a strong urge to do logical things. And I felt so good doing it. I felt so much better than reading some shitty comic books. I was learning, I was growing. I love logic. I want to keep doing logical things. It makes me feel so happy. After putting down the comic book and experiencing this click, I went back to the computers and started reading more about physics, about critical thinking, about logic, about fitness, about diet. I wanted everything. I wanted to understand everything logically.
thanks for reading!" source
PreClick Core Value:
"I’m 27 years old and from Denmark. 2016 has been a great year for me with a lot of victories. Such as a massive weight loss, and generally getting in good health. My clicking story begins 20th October the night "logic nation" video was released. I watched with great interest, and after the video I checked out the subreddit. Even though it was mentioned in the video that "comfort" was a core value, I didn’t fully absorb it. It was when I saw it in writing on the subreddit that I instantaneously made sense of it. My whole life was pretty much explained just by the two words together "comfort" and "core value". Up until then I had thought that a core value could only be a positive thing, so I believed my core value was independency or something alike. But after realizing comfort was a core value. I pretty much replayed my whole life in my head, and I could pinpoint everything to comfort. From laziness, my lack of physical activity, my desire to play video games, and most important of all, my obesity and bad state of health. At this point I experienced an incredible euphoria for the next 3 days. I spent the next 4 days consumed watching documentaries. The 4th day I had to socially interact with people again, and I expected to be this "enlightened" being and nothing could harm me, I was however to be proven very wrong. In conversation with friends, I got hurt from very mundane and trivial things they said. After the conversation, I was very confused, as I was now aware that I must not have clicked. It was only a placebo click.
Step 1: I reasoned that the reason I didn’t fully click was because my faith in logic was very low. I didn’t even get time to understand logic as defined by this community, because I instantly placebo clicked after reading that comfort was a core value. So, I spent the next 3 weeks or so reinforcing my belief in logic. I watched Cosmos, Documentaries about fractals, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism, listening to realtalk podcast and several documentaries by BBC Jim Al-Khalili. I was absolutely convinced that this whole "clicking" thing was real, because even if it was a placebo click, I would not have been able to spent 4 days entirely productively before the placebo.
Step 2: It was very easy for me to find my core value as described earlier, however I had now believed that validation was also a core value of mine. I looked back at my life being a bright young child and always getting praised for my natural "intelligence". However, as I grew older, I obviously could not rely on natural intelligence only, and would have to study and put in effort, but at that time I was not ready for that. I expected to be able to pull through anything because I was "smart". When I realized, I was not as smart as I thought, I was already a late teen, and by that time I was already deeply consumed by my "comfort" and was doing nothing but play games all day. Thinking more and more about this, made me realize that the whole validation was because of comfort in the first place. My real core value was comfort, and validation was just my way of being "comfortable" in social situations.
Step 3: After the placebo click, I was spending 3 weeks to reinforce my belief in logic. I realized after some time, that I had become happy in those 3 weeks. I was in a weird mixed mode of comfort/logic. Basically, I was still driven by comfort, but now my comfort allowed me to do logical things without me getting bored, or wanting to play games or anything of the likes. I realized this quite late, because at this point I truly felt happy with my life, being able to be productive, while still feeling rewarded from comfort. My comfort had convinced me that I was happy and didn’t have to pursue the click. However, after some meditation I couldn’t justify what good comfort would do for me, as basically everything important in life happens because of logic. When I procrastinate, and do tasks at the last possible moment, it is only because the objective reality has caught up to me, and my only option is to do the task. Without comfort, I would be able to carry out tasks without procrastination. All comfort did throughout my whole life was made me feel that “everything is fine” even though there were glaring issues, comfort made me sit down and forget about the world and its problems.
I was now fully committed to try clicking and I felt I knew how I would be able to. I basically memorized my whole life, and saw how comfort was always a part of my actions. After graduating school, I started getting addicted to video games, and all I did was try to become as good as possible at the games to get in game recognition, while forgetting about the outside world and live in my own comfort bubble. This led me to gain a lot of weight and become morbidly obese. The way I went about the click itself was probably quite unique. I tried talking to my “inner child” but it just didn’t work for me. So instead I imagined my “worst self” basically the version of me I was when comfort had consumed me the most, and compared it to a “best version” of myself, with logic as his core value. This is where the emotions absolutely overwhelmed me. I could not deny that comfort would lead me nowhere good. When I ate too much junk food, it was because of comfort making me feel good temporarily, but disregarding the long-term damage I was doing. While logic was doing what, it was designed to do in my body, and trying to keep me healthy, with the junk I my body. That was the point I started to get very emotional, my weight has been an issue for me for many years, and I had always known I couldn’t continue ignoring the issues, and finding a cause for it, rather than just accepting that “there was something wrong with me” was really eye opening. I was in an incredibly emotional state at this point. I knew that this must be the real click, so I watched a video about Fibonacci numbers while my comfort was at its weakest: video
After the video, I felt tremendous relief. I felt at ease, and the problems I envisioned in the future were no longer a thought. After the click I became a lot more emotional. If I did something that was illogical because of impulse, I would feel incredible dissonance and would have to redo it if possible. For example, before the click I was quite a messy person, being in a dirty environment didn’t bother me at all. But after the click, if I sat down on my couch while I knew I had dirty dishes waiting, I was not able to sit knowing I had something more logical to do. Also, one of the first things I did was research about animal products, and I became vegan almost instantaneously.
I was now in a state where I didn’t have to think about what to do next. It basically just came to me, and I would have to do it. Another thing was food no longer was a reoccurring thought as it usually was. I was usually the kind of person who would contemplate what I wanted to eat many times throughout the day. But after the click, I only thought about food when I felt hungry. I felt amazing for these 2 days. But unfortunately, I would have a setback.
Unclick After a couple days of pure bliss, living with logic as the core value I now had tasks to attend. But a combination of anxiety and procrastination hindered me in going out and do what I had to do. I basically went against my core value and experienced incredible dissonance. The anxiety in itself was nowhere near as predominant as it used to be, in fact the dissonance I felt from not doing what I had to do was way stronger, but I ignored it and tried doing “the second most” logical things like watch some documentaries, but I realized that I just not could shake this dissonance away before I had done my task. I didn’t do what I had to do that day, and when I woke up the next day I no longer had logic as my core value. I had basically ignored the 4th step, and it had costed me dearly. When I had, unclicked I was not completely aware for the next day and half. I spent the day doing only logical things but I would realize that I did not have the same emotional desire as I had previously, and I was using discipline to do it. When I unclicked I went back to my complete old and worst self. At this point I decided, to let comfort take the reins for some time, and use it as material to trying to click again. After only 3 days, my home looked absolutely terrible. I had done nothing productive, I went back to overeating, not working out, leaving my apartment in absolute mess. And all of that in exchange for momentarily pleasures I got from playing games and watching other forms of entertainment. I thought I would need couple of weeks to get enough material to feel equipped to try reclicking, but after 3 days I was confident I was able to. In fact my comfort was trying to make me procrastinate with the click and wait a couple of weeks, but I forced myself to go through with it, even though I now also had a great fear of clicking and losing it again forever.
Reclick The way I went about reclicking was basically comparing my 2 days with logic as my core value, and the last 3 days with comfort. It was actually incredibly easy for me to reclick and it only took 15 minutes. Again, my health was playing a big role. I knew that I had gone back to my worst self in terms of overeating, and it would lead to getting fat again If I let comfort control me. And on the other hand, logic would only move me forward. I would be able to do everything I had to do without procrastination, I would be able to understand the world, to be productive without forcing myself with discipline. Comparing these two scenarios I again felt immense negative emotions towards comfort as I did in the first click. This time I also watched the same Fibonacci video, and afterwards I meditated and tried to see if I had really clicked. I reasoned it was pretty pointless though, because I knew exactly how it felt having logic as core value, and the emotional drive I previously had to do logical decisions. So, I just went on with my day, to see if I had really clicked or not. First thing I did was clean my home without effort. Afterwards I did math I wanted to do for a while. I had incredible clarity, and understood it without easily. When I was done, I did my exercises I had neglected the last 3 days. This also came easy to me and required no discipline. When I was done, exercising I researched about vegan nutrition, and went to the marked to buy what I needed to sustain a healthy plant based diet. When I got back home I started reading “Real Answers” very thoroughly, watching videos about concept I didn’t understand while reading. I could now sincerely say I had an emotional drive to understand everything.
The day after I woke up after just 5 hours of sleep, was not tired and woke up immediately. First thing I did was go out and do some task I had previously procrastinated about, and when I got home I watched a documentary and now writing this testimony in the hopes of being able to help others click. I am absolutely aware how important the 4th step is now, and I have no intentions of going against my emotional logical drives.
Aftermath: I am currently restructuring my life. I have decided to learn about the human anatomy. It is eye opening how much I took my own body for granted, consumed absolute junk, and just expecting everything to be fine. I want to learn and understand how every system in my body functions. This obviously has an emotional importance to me as I was previously very unhealthy.
Secondly, I need to sort out my financial situation. I have a debt I need to pay, and need to figure out the most effective way to go about that. I also realize that the environment plays a big role in how we progress, and applying to the crew would be the most logical step, but I need to become financially independent first.
Lastly, I still experience remnants of the past. However, I am now very well equipped to deal with them. When my thoughts sometimes ponder about unimportant things, I can observe my thoughts as an observer and simply smile at them. Also, I feel like I can control and stop useless thoughts I have.
Thank you for reading about my journey, and good luck with clicking. It is absolutely real, and will change your life if you put in the effort, and approach it with an open mind." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hello, I live in Uruguay and I am 22 years old. This is the story of how I got the click. Several months ago, I listened to Athene's podcast with admiration. I want to change the world, improve it. The idea that our environment is what makes us and therefore we are this environment was an idea that I loved and altered my way of living day to day. However, I noticed in Athene and other successful figures an ingredient that I lacked. This frustrated me and made me fall into the routine once more, then I would remember but not do anything about it, which caused more annoyance.
A week ago I returned to watch Athene's videos when I noticed that they stopped being about his streaming platform . I understood quite quickly what it was about and I was fascinated to have found that missing ingredient. After speaking with a clicker on discord I had what I like to call a pre-click: it was a placebo click that helped me complete step 1 and also generate positive experiences taking a logical path in my actions, these actions played a fundamental role in Step 3. When I lived this pre-click I went to my house and uninstalled all my pc games, games that I put before my obligations and preferred before my development as a person. That day I felt VERY good.
The next day I joined a friend who I had already commented on my previous frustrations and I talked about this new approach. While debating on the subject, many questions emerged, situations that I had not considered such as: what would happen to my girlfriend? I'm in a happy 3-year-long relationship, if I make this click would my new way of thinking get rid of her? I returned to my house and I told a clicker, he told me what I basically knew: "what is more important, improving humanity or being with your girlfriend?". Then, the next day, I asked her to talk about this. We had already talked about how our life goals were not the same and how, ultimately, could mean separation. She took this reminder in a very logical and calm way. This let me calm down and then it occurred to me that she could click too.
Identifying my core value was hard. I listened the meditation for Step 2 but I had to listen to it a second time for it to be effective (the unpredictability of what happens deconcentrated me). I thought about it for a while, hours with the idea in my head trying to decipher it. Eventually it became clearer when I was completely honest with myself: it was validation. I understood that several of my memories that I most detested were directly related to that and how I put myself in disadvantageous situations just so that others had a better image of me. Even the reason why I wanted to change the world was related to this, it was interesting to recognize it.
Step 3 was undoubtedly the most difficult, but I could find a method that I hope will serve you: The first thing I did was try to remember those moments that helped me to identify my previous core value, memories to which I felt anger and hatred. Secondly was to remember how that pre-click day was and how good I felt deleting those games, I absorbed that experience emotionally and it gave me a lot of satisfaction. Then I began to interweave these emotions, first I remembered those bad moments and I felt that anger and hatred, then I went to my pre-click memory, then I returned to the bad moment and so several times. I repeated this process until I emotionally understood and relied on logic and the change was made. It was not a spontaneous changeover but rather a smooth transition where the previous core value was fading and my inner child was grabbing this new value that became stronger.
After the click I felt free. Now nothing bothers me as before. I can get up early, go to the gym, all with no problem. What happened to me several times was that I found my body doing involuntary acts that corresponded to my previous self, there I understood the importance of step 4, re-think what surrounds you, which I am still in process to strengthen my logic. I also felt that I had to tell my friend and my girlfriend.
Thanks for reading and I hope this helps." source
PreClick Core Value:
Hey guys, my name is Jonas I am 20 years old and from Germany. My Click journey started 1 month ago, first I will introduce myself to give you an impression of what kind of person I am/have been. Maybe some people can identify with it and get inspired.
I was a very introverted guy over that last years, I had very low self-esteem, social anxiety and my life was just controled by fear of not being accepted and not being good enough. In school I wanted to fit in and be a part of a the group of cool kids, but I always felt alone because I knew that my fear is bigger and I cant´t suppress it by pretending I am am cool, strong and confident. I started playing video games and felt realy comfotable with it, because in the game I had control over my life, I felt strong, confident and powerfull. So for the time I went to school my computer was my best friend. There is a high chance that my corevalue was a combination of fitting in and feeling comfortabe.
My life turned a bit when my ex-girlfriend cheated on me and I broke up with her after 1 1/2 years. I was so frustrated that I got interested in doing personal development and spirituality to build me up again. It realy helped me a lot and for 3 years that was my tool to build confidence and get a strong foundation so that I can help myself when shit is going down. I still had a lot of fear in me but know I could handle it and build an armor to protect me from getting hurt.
Because of personal development I started to structer my life more logical. I started working out, eating healthy(vegan diet) and build connections with like mindet people. Back in the days I already knew that I wont study, because if I am interested in something I can just learn it by myself and look it up in the internet.
I already have been following Athene for some time and listened to his real talks and podcasts. But when I heard about that clicking stuff 4 weeks ago a fire started burning in me and I just wanted to click.
Step 1 As I always said I already had a logical structured life and was very open to learn and improve to be a better version of myself. I watched almost every video/documentarie that is recommendet in step 1 and the fractals and fibonacci stuff realy strengthened my trust in logic. I wrote down almost all my insights I got from it and I recommend you to do the same, here some examples that might help you:
- If I want it or not, EVERYTHING just works because of logic
- There is a logical answer behind everything I am doing, thinking and feeling, I already make sense
- I am not a seperated identity, I am a purly logical beeing and logic wants to develop through me
- Logic is my friend and if I trust in it I will find an answer to every question I have and will have
- I can trust in logic because reality is logical (some more insights that will help you here)
The essential point in step 1 is to TRUST in logic, you can compare it with god if it helps you. Imagin logic being an infinit source of knowledge and wisdom right infront of you wanting to guide you and give you safety. You can only trust something if it gives you safety. And what could give you more safety than understanding reality?
Step 2 The most importand part in step 2 is to reflect on yourself and everything you are doing, feeling and thinking. In the first two days I felt like shit but I could reach my core. My inner child just wanted to have affection, love, being understood and validation because in the past that gave me safety. I realy could feel the pain and suffering inside me and where it comes from. Its importand to feel all you suffering and understand it, if you do, step 2 is completed. So feeling safe (comfortable) was my corevalue but its not that importand to have a name for that feeling. I also had a moment when I saw a picture of my father holding me when I was a baby. I started crying because I just had a strong desire to be hold like that again and feel safe and loved. I ,,transformed`` into my inner child and just gave its feelings space to just be.
Step 3 If you did step 1 and 2, have an unconditional trust in logic and know whats going on with you inner child Clicking will be the most logical concequence. I tried doing step 3 realy hard for the first 2 weeks but I could not make the click. I contacted a Clicker to ask for advise and it helped me a lot. I already had a very emotional moment when I saw the picture of me and my father holding me and tried to convice my inner child that logic is better and will give me more safety but I could not do the complete switch even though I got realy close. I got a little bit frustrated and took a break of trying to make the Click. I went to the gym and suddenly I had an insight on why I am still holding on to the fear. When I went back home I wrote it down and something In my brain just crashed, I was like WTF am I doing that makes no sense, my fear makes no sense, my corevalue makes no sense I understood my corevalue deeply and could see it clearly. I already had a strong trust/connection to logic so I knew that I dont need that fear anymore and logic will hold me. I could feel and convice my inner child that this corevalue does not provide saftey but will bring more and more fear, so it could grap logic instead. My thoughts instantly stopped I felt a reliefe and was just in the moment happy and free. It felt so natural and easy to let this flawed concept go. Since that moment I had the following effects.
- I struggled with asthma for 10 years and its almost gone now
- I want to do logical stuff and it just flows naturaly
- I feel like beeing high the hole day and have A LOT of energy and focus
- I do not have the desire/need anymore to stick with an opinion (to feel safe)
- I am okay with not knowing something, uncertainty is no longer a problem (because I know that if I trust logic the answer will be there at some point)
- A deep desire to learn and grow
- Verification is not that important anymore
- I dont need to prove myself
- I am in a relaxed state and I feel like the fight in me is getting less
- need less sleep and a lot more...
Even though I had these changes my doupts that I clicked were realy strong. I needet the validation that I did the Click and red a lot of testimonies to compare my experience with other peoples experience. The click was still very fresh and remnants of the past kept showing up, so I struggled a lot to keep the energy going. At some point my doups destroyed me and I just unclicked. For two weeks I tryed to go deeper and hoped for a proper click experience so that I wont have any doupts, but of course there will alway be some doupts, the trick is to just not indentify with it. So I realised that everytime I think about logic how it will change my life and will help me to be a better version of myself I felt A LOT of energy and happiness. So I just dropped my doupts and trusted that posetive feeling again.
Step 4 What helped me a lot after the click is to think for myself before adopting an opinion of someone else. Its literally the first time in my life thinking for myself and without doing it doupts will destroy you and there will be a lot of them showing up after the click. I unclicked because of that and I think that it is the most important thing to keep your energy up and keep using logic. The real task starts when you click so its good to strengthen you trust in logic more and more, you also want to do it naturaly anyway but keep in mind that your brain has to rewire itself. Give yourself time and be patient, keep doing logical stuff and after some time it will be normal and your foundation will be strong. Move your ass and do some exercise it will help your brain to rewire and will free your mind of dissonance.
So yeah, It´s not that hard to Click but you realy have to want it your whole being hast to strive for it and after some time it will happen anyway, because it means that something in you is already connected to that idea. You dont have to learn to be logical but you have to discover it, its your nature and if you trust it it will guide you, it´s just a process of letting go flawed ideas an accepting your nature. Keep going and you life will change completly.
Thanks for reading and I will be happy to have some feedback and of course you can ask me questions. Source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hi, I am a 19 year old guy from Sweden and I clicked 3 days ago. This post might be especially helpful for people who experience(d) depersonalization, generalized anxiety, panic, paranoia, depression and/or people who do not consider themselves intellectual or smart. Please keep in mind that what worked for me to make the click and after might not work for you. It is important to critically think and question for yourself. If you have any criticsm or feedback, please leave a comment.
Since about march last year my mental health has gradually gotten more unmanageable up until I clicked. Since I was about 13 I experienced low self-esteem and social anxiety as I had developed from puberty breast tissue under my nipples, similar to how girls develop breasts; a condition called gynocomastia. This was very traumatic for me. In my already critical years of puberty where one starts to care more about what others think and making sure one fits in, I felt very confused and scared. From this I always felt like I was never like all the other ''normal'' boys in a negative and inferior way. My gynocomastia even made me fear that I was turning into a girl. You can imagine all the fears that I developed from this and the constant anxiety of thinking if other people notice it and what they think of me. I had certain depressive periods where didn't want to go to school and at one point I was even suicidal (yes, at 13 years old). My core value from there on has always been getting the validation and safety from others to make sure that I fit in and so that I am not neglected or rejected.
As I was growing older, these emotional states did not benefit me in my growth and adaptation with reality. I had a hard time talking to people and especially girls. I felt like i couldn't be a man that my social conditioning has taught me, even though I always tried my hardest to. I therefore developed an identity/ego around this channeled through my passion for bodybuilding. The bodybuilding aspect helped a little bit, I was able to function better and feel a little better about myself as I became the biggest and strongest guy in my school at around the age of 16, but at a core level I still always felt worthless, unworthy and unlovable.
As I was going through life, certain things hit me harder emotionally than expected. My first girlfriend breaking up with me and getting together with one of my good friends really broke my self-esteem. I gave up on girls and thought it is all hopeless. I had a period where I said fuck everything and all I was caring about was lifting more weight in the gym to forget about everything.
I was developing a resentment to girls and distrust in people. At around 18 certain events happened that made me feel extremely guilty and more shame over myself. I developed generalized anxiety that was bothering me everyday that then few months later escalated in to panic attacks. I had obsessive intrusive thoughts over if I was gay as I no longer felt excited about seeing or talking to girls and thoughts that I am worthless and I am going to hurt people. I then about 6 months ago had such a panic attack that fell into depersonalization, a state in which your rational and emotional part disconnects as the emotions are too strong to handle. This made me feel numb, as if I was viewing myself from a 3rd person perspective and I didnt feel like I was in my own body. This made me fear and distrust reality. I didn't know who I was anymore or who the people and the environment around me are. The emotions felt gone so reality felt fundamentally different. The depersonalization was reduced a little bit. I started fearing stuff like god and the devil, even though I have never been religious or believed in that. I experienced weird thoughts and emotions constantly hijacking me everyday. My joints and muscles were aching from all the anxiety and paranoia.
I started going to a psychologist, researching psychology online, listening to the athene podcasts, read ''Real Answers'' and tuned into the streams. Although I did all this and understood the information, I couldn't apply it. My whole life I had never really thought and questioned things. I didn't consider myself smart, so I had all these doubts, plus the fears and intrusive thoughts and emotions. I felt like I couldn't trust the information, I felt confused and didn't know how to go about my life. Then I heard about the click. This was the answer to everything. When Athene said along the lines of, ''You can trust logic more than anything as everything has a reason. This reality is made of consistent logical patterns, it is just that you don't understand them yet, but trust in that everything has a reason, but you just don't understand it'' this gave me a lot of hope. I then learned more about the click and the 4 steps.
For step 1, what worked the best for me was what Athene said about ''everything has a reason, you just don't understand it yet'' as well as personifying logic into god. Even though I am not religious, the idea of someone or something out there taking care of me and looking over me really resonates with me emotionally. I know from Christianity that god loves everyone and all I have to do is love him back and all my problems can be solved.
As I went through step 2, I didn't know what my core value was I had too much dissonance to even ask that question or figure it out, so I went by it by logically understanding all my trauma, anxiety, dissonance, etc, that was there when I started analyzing I constantly pinged to how logic will take care of this. This is a very hard process and took me about 4 weeks. As dissonance was being reduced I came closer to understanding what my core value was. It is important to be very honest to yourself and feel the emotions. I understood then that it had something to do with people and what resonated was love, hugging, validation, being a part of a group. I then defined it more simply as validation. Also all the other ''positive'' things such as comfort, my bed and the validation of friends and family, I understood that without logic, I wouldn't have this, as well as seeing how logic brings more safety, happiness, comfort, validation, etc. I was constantly aware of everything in my experience and pinging it to logic, either how logic can solve this or how logic is better.
Step 3 happened automatically as I was doing step 2 and as I have learned and understood, my reward center got connected to logic. I felt a dopamine rush and a present moment experience. I went to a lake close to where I live and just saw the patterns in everything. The pebbles on the ground, the ducks in the water, the waves and water ripples, the sun reflecting on the ground, even in how people were walking and talking. I understood that this is what beauty is, logical patterns.
Though the experience was something I would describe as true beauty, it didn't last like this, and here is where the importance of step 4 can not be stress enough. My identity, past, intrusive thoughts, anxiety was gone. I was just in the moment, but as I was saying ''hi'' and smiling to strangers walking by, I could feel my social anxiety coming back (remnants of the past). This freaked me out a little and so I tried again to understand but it got worse and it felt like it was coming back. So I went back home and laid in my bed and repeated a similar process as in step 2 ''logic is safety, everything has a reason I just don't understand it. Logic is god.'' This I learned is very important. As I have experienced very strong negative emotions and traumatic experiences, going through the click won't instantly get rid of them, they will come back, but the benefit of the click is that I can now handle them and I am not afraid of taking my time on it. This is of course the most logical thing. Even if I have to lay in bed all day, finding ways to strengthen or maintain the emotional connection to logic is the most logical thing I can do. I had to accept that I hadn't been ''cured'' but that I have been given the tool that will gradually help me solve my problems. The euphoric experience can then sometimes come back and other times it is less as I have not fully understood all my dissonance nor strengthened the neural pathways for logic enough. This is ok, this is just a part of the process, but I know if I stick to it, things will just get better and better and my awareness will grow.
My tip for more emotionally sensitive both clickers and non-clickers with similar experiences like mine. If you feel that dissonance that is strong is coming back, accept it and go back to the concepts and emotions that strengthen your trust, safety and love for logic. When you feel safe enough, slowly and gradually go through your dissonance to understand it. If it gets too hard, go back to concepts that strengthen logic. In my case, if remnants of the past comes back and I am, for example, researching and learning, it is more logical to stop and try to figure out the dissonance first and also to think of those concepts or go experience those things that strengthen your love, safety and trust in logic. Another way to strengthen your emotional connection to logic is to try to manually reward yourself when you do logical things. I would even suggest to exaggerate your manual reward and connect it back to what ever concepts of logic that resonates with you. So for me it is the personification of logic as god and all the beauty in the patterns around me. This helped me strengthen the trust in logic to then help me in my process of understanding remnants of the past." source
PreClick Core Value:
so initially i seemed to have automatically placebo clicked while watching athene's stream in late october. I felt excitement from this and a strong drive to do logical things but it did not feel completely real to me and i was skeptical - something felt off. I kept doing logical things which started with restructuring myself but I later realized that my actual core value (fitting in) seemed to be getting in the way a lot, so it faded. However, at the same time I was also feeling extreme dissonance which I suppressed due to a strong attachment to stacking money which was related to something i was doing for money at the time.
So fast forward a few weeks to mid november, I felt a bit sad that I did not take any action beyond restructuring my beliefs. I was in bed just letting my thoughts wonder and i felt a bit guilty as I knew comfort and fitting in values are a dead end. This was several days after realizing that my real value was fitting in which i patch up with comfort, and whilst i was lieing down i felt this sensation where there was a lot of pressure inside my ears. It was very brief, about a second or less, like a gush of strong wind. At the time I thought "shit, i wanted to tie up loose ends that were making me feel dissonance before i clicked" and I had the feeling that this was indeed a click. So i slept and I woke up feeling, once again, the increased mental clarity and drive to understand everything logically and do logical things. However, I think this was also a placebo click, because while I was wrapping up the things in my life responsible to me that were making me feel duality, I seemed to have unclicked yet again... friends got me to play games even though I didn't really enjoy it and I was still watching athenes stream for comfort. I told a few friends about the click however their elaborate rationalizations around it such as calling it a cult seemed to have swayed my view on an emotional level, which must be because I have an emotional connection to them, which I later find out is connected to a strong rooted emotion i had to getting rank 1 in WoW from years ago.
Fast forward a week or so: After experiencing placebo click twice (or click and unclick twice) I was a bit frustrated with myself for not taking any action, however I still felt this level of clarity and peace with myself but I knew there was duality buried deep as this must have been the defense mechanism of my inner child protecting its core value even more. I was in a constant meditative state. It felt nice, but i was angry that this also meant that it would be harder to click, and i felt almost hopeless in fact, to the point where I was almost going to give up and resort back to this sludgy comfort & fitting in lifestyle. I kept telling to myself that i hated being a parasite even though I felt at peace.
So on 26th november, I decided to water fast & meditate the entire day (deprive myself of all rewards). On that day I was only starting to scrape the surface of how i felt at the core. My inner child was protecting it strongly. However I realized i made a big mistake; I was strongly focused on clicking and this seemed to have made it even harder to click or access my deep seated emotions. The only things I seemed to have gained from doing this was that I discovered that I still had a strong emotion connected to getting rank 1 on wow even though I had not really played that game in years. Everyone that i had played a lot of arena on WoW with also was connected to that strong emotion. So basically validation. When this emotion bubbled up to the surface, I tried to flip this by imagining "getting rank 1 as a superorganism". But I did not click this night.
Fast forward to 3rd dec: I did the same thing again, water fasted & meditated the entire day. As the experience began I was delving through strange defense mechanisms my brain had created to protect my core value. I was imagining clowns and weird entity's however I did not entertain these thoughts and they soon faded. This whole experience was quite a blur to me but as I got closer to my core I found myself experiencing resistance, and I found myself wanting to curl up into a fetus position and hugging myself around a radiator. I felt very scared and also immensely guilty. I was trying to visualize inside my head and imagine my core value as a rotting teddy bear and logic as a gold ball that engulfed my inner child giving him instant intrinsic confidence. Later on I told to my inner child that he can trust me. I told my inner child to please stop hiding, i was asking him why he was hiding and that he could trust me. This carried on for hours to the point where I felt i could not get any deeper. I then told my inner child that I was sorry which triggered this avalanche of emotions that released from my body and made me cry lots, more so than i had ever done in a long time. The following morning was accompanied by a strange lucid dream of a strong electric shock going through my ear.
I don't think i clicked that night. But the following day i felt vulnerable and unsafe once again. Just like I felt before i placebo clicked in October. I felt really guilty and that I won't be able to click. I played games with friends for the entire day. I felt okay while i was playing them but when i turned off my pc and went to bed the vulnerable and unsafe feeling quickly came back. I was going over thoughts in my head that I would be stuck in this paradigm forever. I heard athene or someone mentioning that it may be easier to click when tired as you will think less in audio and more visual, so i let my visual thoughts continue even though i was tired and wanted to sleep. I felt scared in my flat on my own, and was imagining skeletons and scary entitys in my room while i was in bed and i also tried attaching a bad smell to my emotions, like the smell of a rotting bin. Nothing seemed to happen, however when i gave up and as I was lieing in bed and "not really trying", the pressuring sensation in my ear happened once again. It was weaker this time, but I was skeptical if I clicked and I was also very tired so i slept. When I woke up the next day I felt this restless sensation to get up and do logical things which i had not felt in years. Normally I would just continue to lay in bed until I could be bothered to get up as it was normally more enjoyable than most comfort-related things i would do. I came to the conclusion that i must have clicked last night and here i am writing what happened." source
PreClick Core Value:
"So I was going to sleep actually, but since I can't get sleep yet anyways ( althought I slept badly last night ) I might as well write here my story so far. I've been following Athene ( mostly on twitch ) on and off for like, 3 years now. Not so actively the last year but I come from time to time to check out, what the crew are up to etc. So as you may expect this time I came to find all this logic stuff. Checked out youtube vids on this topic etc. Being familiar with Athenes methods in past I did not let myself be distracted by some things that would have made me distrust the ideas (illogically tho) from some other sources. Like the documentary being pretty mainstream-like. Had a feeling of watching some discovery documentary from time to time. Anyways the idea of engineering my reward system to "shoot" at logic seemed..fascinating, since I've always had a problem of procrastinating and motivating myself to do stuff, so I gave it a try. What Happened? I'm not entirely sure. I'm on kind of a solo-quest, so I did not read much materials about it or consult anyone else on the topic, however something did happen. I had thought about it for some days, but it was yesterday at mid-day when I simply decided to lay down in bed and try to "have sex" with logic. Fuck the shit out of it. I had read tips and information about the "click" but I didn't really follow the steps or do things in certain order, I just started really intensively to think about how my life is going right now, and how I would actually want it to be going. How I do useless stuff every single day, just to feel good momentarily. I started picturing problem by problem, the ones I'm having right now and the ones I've had in past, and kept acknowledging that I would have not had them if I followed logic, instead of doing stupid shit for comfort, just to feel good in a moment. Or get validation from a group of people or whatever. It just seemed so obvious, but still I had never really applied it to my life. It was something close to "yo-yo" technique I saw someone mention, but I was mostly only focusing about the bad things comfort is responsible for my life, and then kept "shocking" myself with the realisation how it could all be fixed by logic. I did not experince an immediate mental "shift" or something, I did however feel differently, suprisingly it was physical for me. Perheps I had just entered a state of meditation for a moment or something but I felt different, relaxed or something like that. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it was something.
Was it a click? Or some kind of pseudo-click? I really don't know but whatever it was/or wasn't It has been changing my life. ( at least so far, ~30 hours later) After all this I simply woke up and started exercising. No obvious reason as to why, just did, it felt good do be doing something. I didn't stop thinking about logic there tho, just kept thinking and thinking, imagining how my life is going to get better by following logic etc. Yesterday was full of just "running" around for me pretty much after that. Cleaning the house, doing stuff that had to be done, and always thinking. "Is this how its gonna be? Can i keep this up etc etc". Probably overthinking a lot at this point. Anyways, what I also did yesterday is quit smoking. I wasnt the biggest smokers of all but still a solid 3-pack-a-week smoker for 3-4 years. And I just stopped. Just like that. I mean its not like I'm a retard, I always knew how illogical and stupid it was to smoke, but I still kept doing it. And now I just fking stopped. Just like that. Same with weed. I was used to smoking weed at night before going to bed and watching series or something. It felt like absolutely pointless thing to do yesterday/tonight. Both, weed and series.
I don't know what this is, if its temporary or here to stay, but whatever it is i'm liking it and not letting it go. At least today I've managed to hold it the whole day, while still actively thinking about logic tho, and repeating in my head how it will make my life better. Last night I didnt sleep good ( maybe it was because my body was used to weed every night ) now it's 1:10 AM and I'm still not sleepy, but head is racing with thoughts, its like I could "feel" my brain activity.
Sure I've forgot to mention everything, and sorry for bad formating/mistakes I've been writing in a rush kind of.
//Oh yeah the nose twitch haha, forgot that. After the "click" or "pseudo-click" or whatever it was, I started to have a weird twitching of nose. It's not even noticeble but yeh its been doing it. I read it can often be triggered by big stress/excitement and since the latter is what I've been feeling for the past 30 hours it kind of makes sense, will pass probably. GOOD NIGHT!" source
PreClick Core Value:
"Prefix: I am a long-time viewer of Bachir (Athene) Boumaaza, approximately since the age of 14. I have always accepted his side of things and very much bought into anything he said, even the trolling and the bullshit. Athene, the crew, his content, his channel, his movements I have always had their backs since day 1, doing what I can, and spreading the word. I have found that in my “actual click”, the reason why I had their back so much was for me, my social validation, my emotional attachment and acceptance, and how I wanted to fit in. With that, this testimony is about how I thought I “clicked”, discussed it live and on stream, then “actually clicking” roughly a month(plus some weeks)later.
On Tuesday, October27th, 2016 I woke up, I “clicked”. I instantly opened up Twitch on my phone with this fresh idea and volunteered to Skype Athene on his stream about my, about my “clicking” experience. (For the sake of understanding, and getting to the point I will shorten it a bit, there is a VOD, I have already given you the date you can listen if you want details.) I spoke briefly through my troubles (pre-click), and through reaching each step, and how logic came to me after waking up that very morning. It was a wonderful experience, I got to talk to my childhood hero and I even tweeted about it right after! (Sound familiar post-clickers?) After the discussion I believed to be making logical decisions throughout my day-to-day life. (I actually do believe some of them were; please comment if specifics needed.) Was I attaching those decisions to my, newly restructured, reward center to logic? The answer, shortly put, is “No”.
It is now Monday, December 12, 2016 and I have “actually clicked”. It happened after a nice steamy bathroom and warm shower, I was relaxed, then I was sudden. In the month and (roughly) two weeks between these two events. I believe I have been stuck, in a weird limbo, between Step 3 and Step 4. (This can be quite intense and sometimes horrifying; I do not recommend moving to Step 3 without first knowing 1, and 2, are very concrete and embedded in your thought processes.) I was being torn apart by my attachment to comfort and social validation by intermingling those core values with the core value of logic. This caused me great dissonance and threw me into an autopilot making incorrect decisions and being very illogical. When I realized all of this and “actually clicked”, things got very different very quickly. My best example: as I was processing thoughts and ideas, I could also feel myself drawing these thoughts and ideas out in my mind; I could even feel it in a physical sense. Everything started to “click” and connect together. I can definitely say an abundant amount of neural pathways were forged today.
“But Jim, you might ask, do you still have attachments to Athene, the Crew, the movements, his content, and his channel?” My answer now is yes, but a different kind of attachment. One that is not for my validation and comfort around those I seek approval, but for the logical reasons behind why him, the Crew, the movements, the content, and his channel are so important. There is such a disconnect today and we have discovered the answer. My advice for those taking the initial leap and starting to trust in logic, is not only to reach out, but to reach in. Find what truly drives you and put it in a duel against logic. If you do this enough, eventually Step 3 will come about almost naturally. It is Step 4 that is a key component after the click happens. We are all tested to make logical decisions every day. Remember the duel technique back from Step 2? Use it at Step 4 again, and the logic will always prevail."
"So the fake click was a lot of excitement and "hype". I felt great I was helping others, my life was falling into a logical place. I was taking steps to better all parts of my life in all directions. But see the fake part about it was I thought I'd made the click when I was still taking the steps up to the click, therefore never making the click and sort of being stuck in a limbo state of "whats next?".
Now when the real click happened, I didn't have to tell myself I clicked, the "click" just happened. And thats because part of the fake click there laid Steps 1-3 embedded into my daily life. Then out of no where it happened I just started to realize, almost out-worldly, subtleties about the connection of everything within and throughout the objective reality around me. It's a very intense sensation but my brain and neurons are firing at a capacity I didn't think I had.
Trying to make sense isn't just about making sense to yourself about thing but by helping others and opening them up to the ideas it really helps yourself. By nature I am a "helper" so once I made the fake click I wanted everyone around me to do the same, even complete strangers. However the world that we have created doesn't quite work that way so going back to, what Bachir told me, is to be careful. See after my talk with him during my fake click I wasn't careful and fell into the trap of remnants of the past and was not diligent enough with step 4. Now, after the real click, I didn't need to be told to be careful. I am fully aware of social norms and subtleties and when to be careful and when to be helpful.
So, if you are going through what may be a fake click and you realize it. Understand where you are lost and why, step wise, and you can easily retain your track." source
PreClick Core Value:
"i am 22 years old from italy. i have been following athene for many years, and so i knew that he was one of the good guys. that was the reason i looked into this thing and did not discard it as a cult. at first i got very enthusiastic about this whole thing and quickly read up everything in the wiki and on the subreddit.
i was already a very logical person so step 1 was very easy for me
step 2 was mroe tricky, at first i thought that my core value was comfort, but it did not realy make perfect sense. with the help from people on discord i figured out that my core value was actually self validation. it made perfect sense. if you find your actual core value there will be no doubt left, so do step 2 properly.
step 3 was by far the hardest part for me, it took me almost 2 weeks. i have low emotional intelligence and am bad at visualization. both these thing are not actually a problem, but i kept telling myself that this must be the reason i am not progressing. the actual reason was that on a subcouncious level i was not 100% convinced. i was scared to leave the safe little bubble that i created. writing down where my current core value would bring me in a few years helped me overcoming that last barrier. after a guided meditation adn the yoyo technique i finally made the paradigm shift.
well thats it, but honestly everything you need to know is on the wiki. just do the steps." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hi everyone, I would like to share my clicking story, as I feel it could help people coming to some new insights. I will keep parts where I feel I overlap a lot with other clickers short, so that the reader can spend his attention more efficiently on the parts that weren’t that clear to me while going through the four steps.
First some information that might be relevant, I’m a 24 year old Master’s student in Bioinformatics about to graduate. Furthermore, I believe to have found the girl I’m going to marry about half a year ago, post-click I still believe this to be highly likely and very beneficial.
Step one was interesting to me, as I’ve never had any trouble following extremely strict self-imposed rules if I think they’re argumentatively water-proof. However, an emotional connection to this adherence to logic has always been missing, until I actively tried to make it, for example by watching Cosmos or by looking at my Master’s courses in a different light. Look up cellular automata models, if you’re interested. All in all, this went smoothly for me.
Step two was more difficult, as I wasn’t sure whether my core value was comfort or fitting in, for different reasons. While looking into this, I heard Athene say several times that both these core values boil down to the same thing, but that didn’t actually help me emotionally understand what my core value was. What did help me, was trying to meditate on those moments between productivity, where I just kind of stared off into the middle distance, or browse dank memes and watch HS videos, just to stare at something. While I never did label this state of being with a world, I could ‘feel’ it and therefore understand it, which I believe is the important part. I started connecting the worst thoughts I could think of to that state: I’m rotting away, I’m not exercising my brain and body enough like this, I’m wasting away my life and with it, the lives of all the people I could have saved by not valuing this state.
After that, step three was surprisingly easy for me. After thinking rationally about the click for a way too long time, doing research in stuff like Kierkegaard’s leap of faith and how I should do it, I finally caught on to the fact that this was just me hiding behind over-preparing instead of just focusing to change my neural pathways. Then, I did the third guided meditation once, after which I felt a short dopamine rush, which I assumed was the fabled click. One big misconception I had was that the click was a binary event – like a switch being pulled in your brain. Of course, everything being probabilistic, I think I was totally wrong in this. For me, the click was only a small shift in belief, where I now emotionally want to do the most logical thing. Of course, I was sceptical and scrutinised my every action in search for a placebo click. Interestingly though, I realised I didn’t care whether I clicked or not, I only hoped it would have a big impact on the world. I’m still in step four, which I feel is extremely important, but I would definitely say there’s a strong before and after, even though there is a spectrum, obviously. Also, I’m in the process of helping some of my friends click, I’m expecting one of them to work it out within the week.
For now I will keep it at this, if you want to know anything, please feel free to ask!" source
PreClick Core Value:
"Today i realized that logic is better than anything else. I've done so much to try to understand myself, I've used meditation and I introspected every key moments in my life. From the divorce of my parents when I was 4, I realized that my whole life I have tried to fit in because I wanted so much to be loved. Ultimately leading to be disapointed by other people's behavior, because they could never offer what I was truly seeking.
Being consistently disappointed and emotionnaly hurt by people, I adapted. Over the years I've built a fortress whose goal was to protect me from getting hurt by people. I've consistently rejected people that cared about me, losing my friendships., never getting too close to people, just keeping things as simple as possible on an emotional level. I submitted to this fear and the more isolated I would be, the safer I would feel. As a result, I would not see any close friends for months.
This layer of my personality only got me so far as the consequence of it led me further and further apart from who I desired to be. All of my actions were guided by this subsconscious fear, preventing me from achieving anything meaningful.
I experienced massive anxiety that manifested physically when I realized my life was the opposite of who I wanted to be. At that time I didnt understand what was happening to me, I was suddenly flooded by emotions that clouded my judgment and my view on the world. The fortress my subconscious built was not a viable solution anymore for my safety and I was consciously feeling and fearing that the remaining of my life would be an overwhelming amount of anxiety. I even started to wonder if a life like that was worth to live.
I looked to seek the cause of all this, through introspection I managed to find it and within the next months I changed everything I hated about my life. I got a GF, I got my own appartment, I renewed relationships with my older friends. I did more in a few months than I did on my entire life. However I felt like I had to constantly fight myself again and again. I always had to go against this wall of comfort.
Ultimately I reverted to my old habits, to privacy and comfort, to solitude and monotony. The monotony provided me happiness as long as I respected it. The loop was sleep, work and playing video games, everything was safe in this loop and under control. Nothing could hurt me.
Until I had a great job offer as well as I tried to join a charity. I unexpectedly experienced anxiety and I did not understand why or how. I almost declined the job for no logical reason, I back pedaled on the charity. I was flooded by sudden anxiety and conflicting emotions without knowing what was the cause of all this.
Now I understand I never fixed the real issue which is this want to fit in, to be loved and accepted. I realize clearly that all these different events that define my identity have a complete random nature. I dont have to get attached to these events as they happened in a probabilistic way, they dont define who I am in this very moment. I can let go of my baggage.
Logic is so much better than my current core value which has proven to be so disfunctional in my life. I've suffered so much. I see now that Logic can provide a better solution to problems and is safer. By embracing Logic, I have a better understanding of who I am and the world i'm evolving in. I can see the extreme beauty that lies in nature and its mathematical complexity. I understand we all come from the same atoms that gave birth to the universe and that we all are connected and in a way the same. I am happy to have the gift to be aware and to feel the universe." source
PreClick Core Value:
My name Is Matthew Koenig, and I am a logical thinker, over the last 3-4 days I have been delving into deep thought processes while meditating at random and highly self reflecting upon myself and the actions I have made over the course of my life of 19 years.
While listening to Athene's words on life and all it's matters from soundcloud podcast to soundcloud podcast, debate to debate I have have officially reflected so much and came to terms with everything that is and will be about the world and myself. I have let go of fear, let go of stubbornness, and more importantly than anything let go of my comfort to the things that have enslaved me. I have never felt more free.
I have been on the search for many months about what I should do, how I should feel, and why I lack motivation for even the smallest of things in this life. I have struggled with depression since the age of 13 and created more or less 90 percent of all my issues from being stubborn and not listening and being true to myself and my fundamental values as a person, not letting the norm dictate.
Depression and self worth have always been conflicting factors in my life, but I can wholeheartedly say thinking deeply, reflecting on conversations, thought processes and just letting things be as they be, I have came out of my depression and 'clicked' into a new frame of mind and lifestyle, a truly selfless existence.
I can easily say the process as a whole has went on internally for me for a very long time, but after truly understanding and not being so blind, not even depression can keep me down or anxiety weigh me down, I came out of this within 4 simple days of conveying critical thinking.
For example: I'm the type of person to get so depressed they sleep all day, don't apply to jobs, don't do daily house chores, utterly just someone who revokes anything that causes discomfort, which in line is the issue of everything, hell not even being on a decent routine to do the things important in a logical manner meaningful manner.
If any of you can come to this self clarity and happiness about what you want in the world and how to make a difference for yourself in a positive light but also to others then I am so very happy for you, without thinking logically and critically about every situation and for what things are no one will truly understand or accept anything, but when you click.. none of the things that make you uncomfortable make you uncomfortable anymore, I have no social anxiety now, I have no depression, I have incredible vast amounts selfless feelings just wants and wants to help people and make the world a better place in thinking these ways. My life hasn't been the best conveying point or example, nor was my click the hardest one to get through, but I have never felt so free, so happy, enlightened and just utterly in tune with myself and what I want and how to do it. Only when you let go of these things and logically come at life will you understand reality in the basis of making a difference for yourself and everything as a whole if that is what you truly want, which you should if you've clicked.
There are so many points I can make and information I want to share about this, but I'll leave the rest to questions anyone has.
I truly hope everyone will take time to really care about these things! Thank you for reading and see you all in the comments." source
PreClick Core Value:
" I guess I should begin my story by saying that I've half-assedly been following Athene ever since his first video on YouTube. I thought he was hilarious and it was always clear to me that he was trolling and any sense of hating him for his ego was absolutely ridiculous to me because, well, he actually was the best Paladin. So, I just saw his act as a fun way to embrace being the best without actually being egotistical because that's exactly what the emphasis of his trolling was against. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if his ego was actually inflated he wouldn't have gone about trolling in the way that he did. I saw that and that's where my trust in this character called Athene began.
When the crew came out with iPower and were focusing on net neutrality issues I was instantly reaffirmed that Athene is truly a humble person because it was evident to me, just so obvious, that his goals are controversy = views = money = Athene's means to actually change the world for better.
l'll digress here to mention that I feel like this was a very important part of why I was so easily able to remain clicked after making the click. The likelihood that Athene is trolling about this clicking experience is actually pretty high considering that trolling for controversy was his platform, his means to actually change the world. When I reasoned this to myself after clicking, there were only 2 probable situations I could come up with in which this could be something that goes against my expectations:
a) I go to join the movement, find out I am absolutely rekt shrekt trolled. But now that I'm here and trolled, certainly Athene would have a beautiful, world-changing reason to have trolled me to get there in the first place EVEN if it has nothing to do with clicking. Ironically though, if that were to happened I still feel like I would continue to live my life clicked.
b) I get completely and utterly trolled, buy into all this for a bit and basically it's a massive ploy to get a bunch of grunts to work for ATHENEWINS. I know I would eventually wake up from this reality and just learn from the experience of being taken advantage of. So, the way I saw it was, there’s no way this experience CANNOT help me grow as a person and achieve what I’ve always fundamentally wanted to do which is change the world.
Moving on to my actual journey through the 4 steps:
Step 1) I’ve always had a certain alignment with logic and problem solving. This made me very easily susceptible to Step 1. Essentially what happened here was that my whole life, I was very much intrigued by science and math but it wasn’t until I learned about Double and Triple integrals in my university physics classes where I actually started seeing the world in a different way. Almost as if reality is just a visual representation generated from the language of the universe that is always talking to us and just never shuts up. This spoke to me in a beautiful way. From this point forward, I adopted “The Most Astounding Fact” by Neil deGrasse as my world view. I would go onto using that world view as a more effective way to achieve validation or comfort.
Step 2) this step definitely came after a long time of assuming the lifestyle of Step 4 without ever knowing about the click movement although it was only 4 days ago that I discovered my true core-value was validation.
To explain: I had fallen out of following Athene for the past 2-3 years and I hadn’t really known what was going on with the crew. I decided to go find out this summer and I came across the video “Most Important Video I've Ever Made. (this will change your life)”. When I saw this video it actually did change my life drastically. I had realized that I had been living my life to please my parents and brother, and more importantly, how much of an influence I can have on my behaviors that are a direct consequence of childish emotions being triggered. I took this as a wake-up call to live my life very similarly to how we do in Step 4, except that this was all flawed because only recently did I realize what my true core-value was.
I didn’t continue watching videos about Athene’s movement nor did I learn of the development of the 4 steps because my girlfriend had promised me that she wanted to join me on this journey of self-improvement after watching “Most Important Video I've Ever Made. (this will change your life)” herself. This never happened and I kind of halted improving my situation in hopes that I could pick it back up when she was ready to join my experience so that we could share this.
As you can see this was all wrong. I was previously going about it in a way as if my core-value was family. What happened after was that my true core-value of validation slowly shifted to a mix of validation and comfort because I was actually just using logic as a tool to make myself happy. Things were going well. I quit my job, stopped looking for more 9-5s, and started making money using the skills I currently have, and so on. All this was doing was reinforcing my true core-value of validation as I now needed to feel validated by the opinions that I and my girlfriend still held in order to feel comfortable.
It was 4 days ago when I was listening to Athene on stream and he said something that hit me like a brick-wall. It was something along the lines of “depression is the result of the reward centre no longer being rewarded”. It was at this moment where my clicking experience actually began. It was my first time tuning into all of the “Athene Cult” controversy, which was right after watching a video from Glinks where he didn’t seem to understand anything about where Athene is coming from. I realized all I had ever truly cared about was validation. As soon as I perceived that my family and friends completely stopped caring about what I was up to, I fell into a deep depression that led me to dropping out of a practically finished undergrad degree in Physics and essentially turned me immobile for 3 years afterwards. I picked up terrible habits like drug and alcohol abuse. I didn’t have my family and friends surrounding me and constantly validating my “abilities” anymore. I just completely hid away from everything.
Step 3) Right after I heard that piece of insight from Athene I got really excited but skeptical about this whole movement. I tried to look on Youtube for sources of debunking his way of thinking but I was just completely unsatisfied by everything I watched. Unable to convince myself that this was a hoax, I actually had some concerns about my perspective on life and how I was going about it, and so I decided to call into Athene’s livestream. I had a nearly 40 minute conversation with him on stream regarding questions that haunted me almost every day. These questions that haunted me were undoubtedly the sources of my anxieties, which you can clearly hear in my voice as I attempted to talk about these issues. I realized some things about the way I act and think about other people that were essentially holding me back, especially after re-watching the vod about 5 times.
After coming to terms with the insights Athene had just given me, I took this as my opportunity to actually attempt to apply the 4 steps and catch up on all the content I had missed since “Most Important Video I've Ever Made. (this will change your life)”. Later that night I caught up to the “Science Find God?” documentary and it became very clear to me that the reason I had been failing so badly at actually adopting Step 4 as a lifestyle is because I had no imagery to cling onto when doubting or reinforcing my faith in logic. Furthermore, whenever my faith in logic was weak, my brother took these opportunities to reinforce ideas of deities or other comforting mumbo-jumbo.
That night, as I was trying to fall asleep, I was going through all the major events in my life in my head and it was overwhelmingly easy to see how logic was the main source of guidance for me and going against it or attempting to gain validation always brought me pain. Before I dozed off I remembered an idea that was very special to me when I was a child. That idea was: The same way in which I logically guide and mobilize Gordon Freeman in HL1, is the same way in which logical decisions should guide and mobilize me. When I woke up the next morning a version of that idea was instantly attached to a god-like presence and it seems impossible for me to describe the beautiful images I associate with this god now but it’s there and it feels closer than anything. In an almost indoctrinated way, but completely on my own terms, I felt that I was now a vessel by which logic travels through. I had clicked.
Step 4) At this point I would say I actually didn’t know I clicked but I think it was because, not only was my path to this moment completely non-linear, but for the two hours that I was awake alone in my apartment that morning, everything I did or felt was seamless. Too seamless to even recognize how naturally occurring my day was, zero dissonance. The rush of endorphin came after my girlfriend woke up and we had a conversation. The dissonance that I would usually be met with when trying to develop an idea around her completely vanished and in less than an hour I feel like we had the most productive conversation about the state of our relationship that we’ve ever had. All resentments seemed to dissolve. She then had to go the grocery store and I was basically sitting there in awe, completely relieved in a way I’ve never felt before. It kept building up from there to a point where it just was too overwhelming. I was sweating, laughing and crying in joy at the same. I had to reach out, I wanted to share what was going on, I reached out to Noxtep and kind of just emotionally typed at him:
"ninospvp-Yesterday at 2:03 PM
I've been struggling with my relationship with my girlfriend for almost 3 years now and as soon as I talked to her when she woke up this morning, it's impossible to describe but the conversation we had, but we almost instantly sorted out any and all grudges we can hold against each other and I feel like she finally looked at me the same way again but in an ironic way, i don't yearn for it anymore
it's not even like i was even expecting to talk to her this way when she woke up too lol
Noxtep-Yesterday at 2:04 PM
That sounds great. Will you be avaible tommorow?
ninospvp-Yesterday at 2:05 PM
Yeah I think so
Lol i'm starting to sweat, too many things i'm finally over coming and they're coming in one after the other
I need to go shower
Noxtep-Yesterday at 2:12 PM
have a good one"
The shower that followed was the best moment of my life. I found my God." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hello this my click experience I will focus on step 3, because personally I had pretty easy time with the first 2 steps. As you go through the post try to imagine what you read. Literally start painting pictures in your head. Please respond if any of you found this helpful.
A kid was sitting on a rock. He found a ball and kicked it hard. So good it felt for him, he kicked it more. And played and played the boy with the ball. Then suddenly the boy stopped. He looked around in terror. The trees, the flowers, the singing birds were gone. He trampled everything as he played with the ball. A desolate land was left of the world. The ground then trembled and shook around him. An abyss opened beneath his foot. He fell and fell into the darkness. Alone he was and scared, didn't know what to do.
A small light ball flew by. He acted swiftly and caught it now. Held it tightly between his palms. He looked at it and saw a light. It started shining so bright and blinding He closed his eyes and felt so calm. When opened them and saw a world. So colourful and full of joy." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hello. My name is Brian (you may have seen me in the discord), I'm 20 years old, and I'm from the US. I clicked about 4 days ago. I didn't make this post immediately as I wanted to be able to provide my insights on step 4 as well, and I now feel that it is a good time. I may, however, edit it later if I find more step 4 related information that I find pertinent.
I will structure my story by the steps:
Step 1: I always thought myself to be a very logical person. I always loved logic, and used it to frame my beliefs about the world. I thought myself to be the most logical person I knew. Thusly, I skipped step 1.
Step 2: This step was what really got me fired up about this movement to begin with, what drove me to want to click. I had figured myself to be logical, however I realized that all of my actions and decisions in life were driven by mostly emotion - specifically, my emotional desire for comfort. This was always a huge source of confusion in my life - the duality between what I thought I should do and what I felt like doing. I was using my logic as a tool to provide for my comfort. I was deluding myself the whole time, thinking I was a logical person, when in reality I was just as emotional a person as anyone else at a fundamental level.
Step 3: This step took me about 5 days. For the visualization, one needs to recall memories of their past where they can see that comfort had brought about their misery and suffering. This was difficult for me, as I had suppressed my emotions and my emotional memories most of my life.
The step 3 guided meditation, and the yo-yo technique, were both instrumental in getting me through this step. I dug deep down to find the memories of my past where I had suffered the most, relived those moments emotionally, and connected all that I was feeling to my core value of comfort. Then, I associated all the good things in my life, all the greatest moments and accomplishments, with logic. I did this many times, each time seeming to incrementally progress me through to the finish line. Every day, I questioned whether I had clicked yet or not, as I was behaving more logically. However, when I did finally click, all my doubts were dispelled.
When I clicked: I felt a rush of euphoria, which lasted about 24 hours. Instantly, I had an instatiable hunger to logically restructure my life. Everything I thought about, I questioned. Everything I did, I questioned. I wondered whether I was brushing my teeth correctly or often enough. I wondered whether the cereal bars I ate for breakfast every morning were actually healthy for me. I wondered why the hell I ever drank Coca Cola.
Another thing that consumed me, was an intense desire to spread the movement. This has become my primary directive. My whole life, I used to care about nothing but video games. Whatever game I was playing at whatever time in my life, was the most important thing to me. I haven't played games since I began trying to click, and now I'm not interested in them at all. They are meaningless to me. All I care about is spreading this movement. Every action I take is in regard to how to most effectively accomplish this goal.
Step 4: Step 4 is where I am now. It's the most difficult step by far for me, but now that I have clicked, I am equipped to handle it. I have a deep emotional drive to understand everything logically - consciousness, nature, my kitchen faucet. I see logical patterns in everything. I have adopted probabalistic thinking instead of binary thinking, to help me navigate this matrix of logical consistency. I used to have terrible anxiety, but it is all gone now, because I know that any problem I have, I can solve it with logic. And indeed, I have.
I now experience minimal dissonance, largely because of the probabalistic framework. If I understand the probabilities of a situation, and account for the chance of "failure" beforehand, then there is no dissonance when the "failure" comes. I now think of everything probabalistically, and it seems absolutely vital that this probabalistic framework is adopted by all clickers.
I hope my story will help others make their way through the steps. If you have ANY questions, or want any advice or etc, please feel free to DM me on discord or reply to this post." source
PreClick Core Value:
"I was an Addict for almost 3 years till now. Actually It started at December 2013, so it is kind of funny that it ends 3 years later on the same month.
I smoked pot everyday, I drank alcohol everyday and also smoked cigarettes everyday. I almost exclusively ate fastfood and shit I ordered from dominos or whatever. I loved eating chips and sweet stuff and never went working out or at least played soccer with some friends. When I look back at it, I am pretty amazed by how the human body still can work for a decent time when consuming shit literately.
I already knew Athene so I had little bit of trust in what he was saying. I told myself: Hey, why not give this logic-stuff a chance? I tried to apply making sense into my current life, starting very softly: My behaviour towards the people around me. I started questioning everything I was thinking, saying and feeling. The feedback was pretty good. I was actually starting to feel better myself, by just being the best version of me possible, even if this includes me being in a disadvantage or whatever. Then I questioned my main problems: Depression, Alcohol, Pot, Fastfood, Sugar and not doing any kind of sports.
By JUST questioning and trying to figure out where the cause of my suffering comes from, I cured my Depression within 1 day. I laughed out loud. And the funny thing is, I even knew it deep inside me in the first place, but I just accepted being in this state because I thought thats how it is. Till now I couldnt even tell my environment about my disease, I kept it a secret. Thats why drinking alcohol helped me escaping from the reality and since it was actually accepted in society, I didnt have a hard time hiding my drinking behaviour. Pretty sad actually.... Being addicted to Alcohol and lately more Marihuana, I questioned why I have the need to do it. I solved the Issue with alcohol pretty fast, because its just full of shit if you're honest to yourself. Good think I wasn't fully into it. I am 22years old btw.
But I think Marihuana has a bigger influence to your consciousness and thats why I even managed doing logical stuff, allthough being high. It even pushed me. First I had to realize that SMOKING and BEING HIGH are two different things, at least it was for me. Because I also was a smoker, i was used to the habit of smoking. So i quit smoking instantaneously when I realized that what I was doing was just a sub-consciousness habit my mind has. It doesn't know that smoking harms me. The feeling of being high, was highly connected to watching movies, playing games or whatever bullshit. So nothing someone cant get rid of.
Till now I did not deal with how drugs can change your brain or whatever, but I think Marihuana helped me understand the universal feeling of having logic as a core value, allthough I wouldnt recommend doing this. Its just what happened to me.
All in all my entire view on the world changed instantly after quitting these things and just living in the now. I started on 18.11.2016 on first hearing from the Click. I couldnt imagine solving the main problems of my life in just about 1 month, without any kind of medicaments or professional therapy.
These are just the things which I got rid of. There already were somethings in my life which already made sense. They got so much improved that I am still fascinated by myself, or rather by the potential of a human being, which I am.
I hope this helps in some way, there are alot of people suffering from Depression and being addicted to drugs or whatever. Maybe someone can relate to my heavy change and understand his own causes.
Sorry for bad ingilishy Have a nice day Levo" source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hello, I am 26 year old from Czechia. I am average guy currently living with my girlfriend and working fulltime job. I know Athene from World of Warcraft and I've been checking his videos from time to time.
I will start with past. Since I was 13 I only lived with my mom (parents divorced, father alcoholic). She spoiled me anyway she could altough we weren't rich. My lifestyle consisted mainly from playing games. When I went to uni, I wanted to change myself I was very asocial without any relationship experience. I went on studying pickup so I could fit in. It helped me and I lost my virginity and boosted my confindence which was very low. I didn't give much time to school so after 3 years I failed uni. I chose different uni and studies. I found new friends and started to smoke a lot of weed. At that time I watched AaR video on vegetarism and it turned me into vegan, because the way they explained it, it made so much sense to me. I managed to finish uni move to another city and find a job.
Two weeks ago I played Since finds God? and it made me very curious. I really tried to understand mechanics behind it and wanted to make a change. It was on 22nd of December I had night shift, but I didn't have much to do, so I was watching first few series of Cosmos, I smoked pot on my way home, thinking about my core value and I really understood what drives me (comfort and fitting in/validation), when I got home, I went to shower to think about it more and how logic is superior. When I laid down to bed next to my girlfriend I was still thinking about it and then it hit me, my whole body started to warm up and I felt really happy, I was unsure what was going on, because I was still kinda high and then I fell asleep when I woke up in the morning I wasn't really sure if that was a click or not because I wasn't really trying to acheive that, but I thought it might hapend spontaneously, so I decided to get more information about it also watched rest of the Cosmos. On 25th I decided to try "controlled" click with mediation that is on podcast, I did all the visualization, but it wasn't quite like the first time.
Since then I just stopped doing what I was usually doing. I started to drink water regularly, I stopped playing games (I tried once, but it didn't entertain me), I stopped smoking pot. I started to read and I am also feeling positive towards people. I adopted thinking in probabilities and for the first time I feel like I am thinking for myself. I really have strong urge to spread this, but I didn't figure out way to do it." source
PreClick Core Value:
A few weeks ago I had already tried to click using the 4 steps and the guided meditation but I couldn't really manage to get to that emotional level, even though I tried different ways of visualisation. I think that it was hard for me to click, because I always had a very comfortable life, so it was difficult for me to connect comfort to negative emotions. I listened to all the newer podcasts and watched almost every livestream for a month, but I just couldn't really find a way that worked for me.
When I first heard Athene talk about the idea that what we really want is existential equilibrium, I kind of understood what he meant, but I didn't fully grasp it and I couldn't find more information about it to help me understand it. Yesterday I went back to the VoDs where he first explained it, to really think about it deeply.
I'm still not entirely sure if the way I understood it, is really what Athene meant, but I'll try to explain the thought process I had while thinking about it. What helped me, was to understand that comfort is just a function that was beneficial to humans because it makes us do things that are important to our survival. For example eating high calorie food, not burning more calories than necessary, getting validation from people around you, so they take care of you. Those are things that used to be very beneficial to just do subconciuosly. However we are now at a point where we understand our body enough, to understand the reason why these things were beneficial and why we evolved that way. Because of that, we have the ability to figure out when it makes sense to follow what our body tells us and when doing something else is actually more beneficial for the real goal these functions were created for. Since the consistent patterns that make us evolve on a genetic level are not the key to our evolution anymore, we have to think about it ourself. Evolution doesn't have the consciousness to adapt during our lifetime, but we can use conciousness to really understand these consistent patterns that created us and work towards the real goal instead of just seeing these tools as the final goal.
After the click:
I'm still actually not completely sure if I really clicked, because the process was more gradual for me and it has only been 1 day since, but I did have one moment that felt like the final click for me, which was in one of the VoDs when Athene said something like "When you fundamentally understand this, you clicked". In that moment I felt a kind of shiver, excitement and relief. I wouldn't really say that I felt euphoric, which is what most people say, but that might just be because I usually don't feel very strong emotions in general. I immediatly went to the wiki, to read the guide to step 4 and I noticed that I was extremely sharp when reading it, even though it was actually very late at this point. The next morning I woke up a few hours before I had to get up and normally I would just go back to sleep, but I just got up early to work on some homework for university which wasn't something I forced myself to do, but it just made sense and the feeling wasn't any different to getting on my computer to play video games. I could definitely tell a huge difference in how efficient I was. Normally it's very hard for me to read long texts or watch long educational videos without distracting myself by browsing reddit or whatever at the same time, but I could easily just watch a 90 minute recording of a class without losing focus or doing anything else, which was almost impossible for me before. On the way to university later I just jogged the whole way which I've tried before, but I would always take breaks on the way even though I really tried to force myself not to. This time I easily just ran all the way and it didn't even bother me, even though it was below freezing, because it was just logical and came naturally.
Before I thought there is a good chance, that for many people it's just a temporary effect similar to people getting a gym membership where they stop going after 1 months, but I'm much more certain now, that there is more to it than you would think as an observer. It really is a paradigm shift and not just someone trying change his behaviour a bit." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hi! My name is Joaqim (and goes by Joaqim on discord), im 17 and from Norway. i would say i made the click about a week ago and after some reflection i have decided to write my testimony. I will do this by the steps provided in the wiki.
Step 1: Now I have always considered myself as a very logical person. Because growing into a best possible version of myself so I can make the most logical decisions is something that have always given me joy. So going into these steps with trust in logic was not hard. Therefore I skipped step 1!
Step 2: When I came to this step I took some time to time to just question why I am in the position in life I am in today and what had been the drive to get me to this position. Going back into my life and finding what have been driving me for years was not very hard because I have pretty much been doing the same things all my life. Furthermore I realised that most of the decisions I have made in my recent years have been more and more logic driven then emotion driven because of my increasing interest in social/cultural/psychological studies and why we are and do the things we do.
Step 3: After listening to the recap of Athenes stream called "merry clickmas" (or something like that) was when I finaly made the moves into clicking. I realised how we are just a part of a bigger picture and how experience was a tool for life to evolve.
Step 4: After clicking i quickly felt that i wanted to become an even more logical person and understand things further. I also thought about ways I could make impact and how I could further spread the awareness of clicking.
Here are some changes I have felt after clicking: * way more clear headed (decisions flows naturaly) * More gratefull for where I am and oppertunities I have. * Opinions on staying away from things like smoking, drugs and unhealthy food have strengthened. * I feel like I want to help more people. * Generally more happy and confident and worry less about my life.
I know this is quite short. Because english is not my first language i find it hard to get all my words down on paper, so if you have some questions on how i made the click please send me a dm on discord so we can talk!" source
PreClick Core Value:
"After reading these three posts, and watching the accompanying video in one of the replies, I believe I made that leap of insight (explained below):
I believe I made the click because I was able to make sense of all (some?) of it after resonating with the conclusion that we're all life (consistency/logic) and by us being this force (logic/life/consistency) that wishes to create, we also ended up creating our "self" in order to rationalize through our environment. Thereby resulting in this duality of "me" vs environment, when we're all life/consistency in the first place, something we've lost track of.
Whether that is a consequence from other people (social conditioning, being told "you," etc.) or we building a boundary to separate ourselves from other objects (living or non-living), it's what our nature as life/logic wants to/can do, and that is create. This is similar to how we emerged from that same creative force/pattern/consistency/life.
This consistency/environment is thus also described by observable phenomena that we label as "logic/making sense." Living with logic/making sense as your core value means living in such a way that you rationalize using this logic to move through this world/consistency that you are. Part of that world includes probability, the natural laws, and human emotions which are all parts of the same coin. Realizing beliefs are a social construct possibly emerging from the reinforcement of other people's emotions (which are guarding them) also paints a picture of why society is the way it is today, and possibly with you accepting others' values as your own in order to adapt.
I tried to make sense through the meditations, step 1 was mainly successful, but it wasn't until reading the rationalization and watching the podcasts did I really put it all together.
Thanks to everyone, and best of luck to everybody else. Stick with it!" source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hello, my name is Alexander and im from Cuba, im 29 years old and im father of a 8 months old little girl. in Discord they told me that i should create a post here with my testimony.
step 1- love logic. i always loved nature and everything around me, i never connected it with logic, i connected it with god, how good was his creation etc... but when i saw the video about fractals and the fibonnacci sequence and everything i just realize that god, whatever created everything is logic. is almost like magic.
step 2- what was my core value it was girl validation. now that i have more insights i udnerstand that that was because my mother died when i was young, and i didn't have enough love from her that i was a girl validation seeker, almost everything that i use to do was connected to get girls, gym, eat healthy, good haircut etc etc
step 3- i connected very fast a negative emotion to my core value, i was a whiteknight, and from a third perspective it was very cringe, when i could realize that was i was doing was going against me i started to cry. then i went to run and suddenly i saw everything different. i started seeing the patterns in nature, i started seeing the logic in everything and i felt something in my brain, like a wave of energy, then i started shaking and i cried seeing how amazing and beautiful is the logic.
step 4- keep doing logical things i cant stop making logical things but is more like i connected a really bad feeling in doing illogical stuff, i dont smoke anymore, i dont drink alcohol anymore, i dont waste my money for no reason etc...
i clicked 5 days ago, and i still feel the hype about everything, it didn't go.
if you have questions, ask me here or in a private message and sorry for my bad english, i dont have a computer, im writing this with my smartphone." source
PreClick Core Value: comfort
PreClick Believes/Troubles: anxiety
"I think I just experienced the "click moment".
I listened to Tim on the stream yesterday and really wanted to have that click too, because it was not just Athene (who I thought was special) who made the click. I said to myself that I would try it the next day. In the morning I had a feeling of excitement in my stomach and tried it out. I got to my core and saw that all my actions came from comfort and ultimately a lack of safety. Then I tried to replace that with logic. It didn´t work, but I felt excited almost the whole day. When Athene then was talking about it on stream I felt even more excited and while he was praising logic and all the time saying how you can trust it, I felt like getting really close to it and at one moment even getting overwhelmed by the feeling of having logic as a core value, so I instinctively blocked it. Then after Riccardo´s talk, who gave a lot of tips, I followed all the steps he did. I lied in my bed and began: Basically finding my core value/drive, which I already did in the morning. After that I created a lot of dissonance which was hard at first, but after a few minutes I really saw how pathetic my life was :D. Then I immediately filled the dissonance with the feeling of logic. I picked a few examples where I really get emotional and then tried to imagine how logic would solve them. I had to force it at the start and I really started to feel like... really amazing. After a certain point I didn´t had to force it and it was just flowing. The dopamine overflow I was experiencing came to an end and I started to feel more normal but with a great feeling in my chest and stomach.
This was one hour ago and every time I think about logic/"making sense" I get a really great feeling. Besides that I really don´t want to lose that feeling, because while I am writing this I feel so great. I don´t know what effect it will have on my life yet. I will try to update tomorrow, because I have to sleep now." Source
"How I changed from being anxious about almost everything to being confident and in the present all the time overnight
Hi I'm 20 years old from Germany and just joined the crew. I managed to click a few weeks ago. My life before the click was usually me sitting in my room procrastinating and watching videos. I didn't saw much meaning in my life, so my drive to do stuff was mainly dictated by the amount of motivational videos I watched at that time. My room was my comfort bubble where I could feel safe and don't have to worry about anything. Doing the four steps this completely changed.
First Step: Trusting in Logic The first step for me was already done by listening to the realtalks over the years. I developed a good understanding about what logic can actually do and how it could change my life. What I mainly did was, connecting good emotions to logic. For example, the feeling of achieving anything I want, I connected that to logic. This in combination with the trust that everything makes sense, completed step one for me.
Second Step: Finding out the core value The second step was a bit harder to do. I had to figure out what really drives me on an emotional level. In order to do so I had to look at events in my past and ask myself why I did what I did. I basically found out that my core value was fitting in, which then changed over time to comfort. I could see that comfort was my core value, because I was mainly sitting in my room and watching series. I also only could really feel safe in my room.
Third Step: Changing the core value to logic The third step took only about half an hour and began in my room by trying to create dissonance. I picked up events in my past where I screwed up or was really ashamed of myself and confronted myself constantly with them. When I created a lot of dissonance, I tried to switch to logic. I imagined that logic would be my savior and really focused on the emotion I had connected to logic. I repeated the sentence “Everything makes sense” over and over again, because I had strong emotions connected to it. I did this until I hit the point where these strong emotions would stay. My body was shaking a little bit and strong positive emotions would rush in my body. That's when I switched to logic as my core value.
Fourth Step: Doing logical things This may be interesting for the people who clicked. After the initial hype I did fall a little bit back in my old habits. For example I first wanted to have a talk to Athene on stream, but my brain was still skeptical about my confidence. In the end I didn't call and after the stream was over I felt dissonance like never before. I did an illogical thing by not talking on the stream. I was panicking, sweating and almost wanted to puke, because the dissonance was so bad. After 20 minutes I realized that I could just argue with myself about my dissonance, because it doesn't make sense to feel so much dissonance for such a long period of time. It makes more sense to feel good and do it better next time. You basically just learn from the experience and move on. After that the dissonance was completely gone and I talked on the stream the next day. So whenever you do “illogical” stuff, don't beat yourself up over it and just try to learn from it, so you won't make the same mistake again. What helped me with building trust in logic was to solve problems using logic. If there are things you don't understand, trying to tackle them structured and logically will further strengthen your trust in it. Also seeing logic as a friend who is always there for you may deepen your trust." Source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"The initial click and instant unclick: After convincing myself that this click stuff is real (~ 1 month ago) I started getting up earlier. Normal was 2 to even 4 pm. I pushed it to 10-11 am. At some point started working out. I tried to find my core value with no definite answers, though I think I primed myself to be more in the touch with my emotional part during this phase. I picked up the tip to visualize. I sat down, closed my eyes, focused on the present and asked myself 'what drives me in this moment?'. I saw a somewhat younger version of myself (maybe 16, I'm 22 now) who concentrated on my mind palace which was a symbol for my intellectual and personal growth. I went to it and asked it, 'why not take this instead?' I showed it a visual representation of logic. A yellow/ golden ball of floating 'interfaces/ screens' maybe an equation floating around in and out of it sometimes. I told it that intellectual growth would be part of it anyway and actually give a boost to it. It accepted it. Visually it took it in its hands and concentrated on it. I knew something was not right, the yellow globe had a red portion like an error message. Something was keeping me from accepting this value. I told this 16 year old me 'hold on to it, I go and check it out.' It was a really natural process. I was somewhat guiding what happened but it more or less played out in my mind on its own. I found a child version of me at a place of no significance I dreamed of the night before. In hindsight I think it is kind of symbolic how I went into a more deeper, maybe more subconscious part than before. My inner child had a teddy bear or something similar in its arms. I tried to take it away from it but it only grasped tighter on it. I produced the logic ball and wanted to convince it that it was better than the teddy. It wanted to trick me. Visually it embraced the teddy so tight that it molded with it so I would never have the option to replace the teddy or else harming my inner child. I saw through the deception and laughed. It was just hiding the teddy behind its back. I asked it 'why don't you wan't to make the click?'. It answered 'because I'm special!'. This made sense since when everybody makes the click I would be the one who could not do it and therefore be special. I realized this was something deep in my personality structure or whatever you want to call it. I remembered a concept that I realized some time ago and that I appreciated a lot. That what I experience as the 'I' or my body in relation to 'the external' is just a framework that my brain build, since it is useful to think this way to maximize reproductive fitness. But the physical matter doesn't care where my body ends and air or whatever starts. 'See?', I told my inner child, 'The whole concept of our being as something discriminable from the rest of matter makes no sense, so trying to be special does surly not make sense at all.' The next moment I got really excited and told it: 'And that is something you yourself already appreciated!'. Then I had a really strong emotional experience 'happy excitement' I would say. My heart pounded crazy strong. I was shaking and breathing really deep and fast. I had a vibrational like sensation in waves across the right of my head. Visually there were streams of a glowing fluid squirting from the place my inner child that sat in a meditating position to this right brain part. This was especially meaningful to me since I have had a bad salvia trip where I believed that I somehow fucked this part of my brain. And at this click moment it felt like it was part of me again and healed. I got up and felt very clear. Still I was very doubtful if it was legit. I asked myself 'was this really it?' I got on the discord and described my thoughts at this moment in the chat. A clicker asked if I wanted to talk. I realized that I was excited about what to say to him and since I wrongly thought there are no senseless emotions after the click (step 3), I put it in a negative light. I saw it as social anxiety and thought It must be proof that I pseudo clicked. I committed to the pseudo click story line and I think I unclicked in this moment ca. 3-4min after the click. Had I just asked myself 'why do I feel this way?' I would have known the logical reason quick and it would have been gone. The way I see it there are still 'old' activity patterns that are likely to take place in the brain or some part of the brain (due to its structure -> 'old pathways'). Effectively I actually felt this pattern spatially in front of me and somewhat to the left, by the heart. And in hindsight it would have been very easy to resist it, understand it logically and make it go but I kind of 'went' into it.
Following the path: I told myself that I just need to keep trying, that I haven't found my true core value and have to go deeper. But I also kept asking myself if I clicked and unclicked and or that I just need to do step 4. I did more logical stuff throughout my days. When engaging in meaningless games/ series/ YT vids, I quickly felt some kind of 'uneasy impatience'. I discovered that when I kept watching longer than a critical point (between 3-6 min), I would numb to it. I guess that happens when old pathways/ habits take over more and influence affective states and overall 'mindset' whatever that is. I realized that doing stupid stuff would stimulate me only very primitively and it was a senseless thing to do, since it brought me away from clicking. One experience where I realized I changed into something better was when my mum came over. Normally this would have upset me a lot since it is hard to deal with her. She needed help installing a printer driver on her laptop. She has no intuition dealing with computer interfaces and its very cumbersome to explain her even something like navigating to her download folder. As I watched her I could truly see her as a person of her own with her own reality, a concept I often visited rationally. But at this moment I was very calm, which would not have been the case weeks earlier. I emotionally saw her as kind of a lost child and actually had something like paradoxical father feelings for her. Which I guess is not that uncommon for people with ill or otherwise debilitated parents but never was remotely the case for me (I did feel sorry for her before but this was something entirely different). Acting on this mindset, I showed her how to change her desktop background. Since I saw that she always googled 'sky' and looks at images before turning of her laptop, I changed it to a picture of a sky. I think this was the first in a long time when somebody did actually something nice for her. So it was a touching moment for both of us I guess.
The reclick: One week ago when meditating on trying to click, I felt disturbed by some sounds my neighbors made. In this moment I realized that this was a somewhat good mechanism when trying to grow intellectually since it drives you to make your environment minimally disturbing. In the past I would be very restless when I was in the same room with a running TV/ radio. I would have the acute feeling that my focus was diverted. I realized that this was something that was part of the outdated neural patterns. I told myself that emotionally reacting to disturbances is actually not helping when trying to focus on anything. I said to myself that this would not be a problem if logic was my core value. At that moment I experienced something very similar to the initial click though weaker. Now I think that my core value was logic since the first click and that at the second click I took away a large chunk of the patterns that I succumbed to. This really helped me to keep the momentum rolling. I was still very skeptical whether I actually clicked now or not but every time I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that thinking about it too much is a waste of time and I'd rather just do logical stuff.
The changes: I pushed my sleep cycle farther forward. I actually get up at 8 am now and it feels right. I see the world from a different perspective now. I had dreads for 5.5 years and kind of wanted to test myself whether my identity is still there. I predicted that I would get dissonance when cutting them, it was not so initially. It was just something I did like anything else. In the night I woke up and felt crazy dissonance. I guess sleeping potentially brings a lot activity to old pathways but thats no problem. I just sat up and thought about it logically. My old pathways cried in pain over having lost a big part of their identity but there is nothing to be afraid of. The dissonance instantly got rekt be a warm glowing ball in its ccore. Its like having this religious mechanism where nothing can harm you since logic takes care of you. Humans do random shit that is not helping with achieving our potential. And its actually very simple to see through the bullshit that people reinforce themselves constantly. I think that this (Neodarwinian) meme will will make the world a much better place. So not spreading it would be unmoral even. Also I realized that a lot of things could be worse right now. I could be the only person on the planet with this insight, fortunately this is not so. Or a hundred different ways in which the world could be more fucked than its current state. I am very lucky to even be in this state where I have the capacity to think about this stuff. I see the world now as this large equation and I'm the only variable, so making the most impact is not even in discussion but just a fact that defines my being. One thing that gave me dissonance was that since I was so unsure whether I clicked, I thought couldn't spread it truly. Now I realized that my story can potentially give insight on how re-clicking can happen which makes it even more important to share it and start spreading this, so I made this post." source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hello my name is Erik aka Nawkin and it seems to me that i clicked yesterday night after listening to the new binaural audiofile. So I tried to click since the Tim talk about 3months ago and I just couldn't do it for some reason. I was laying down in bed trying to do it visually, with the yoyo effect, the equilibrium method. I felt like I was really close but i simply couldn't make the jump. Finally when I listened to the new audiofile, I felt something more in the last 2 minutes of the experience. It wasn't that euphoric like some other ppl explained (i wasn't blown away by my room or hands or something like that). It was probably a more mild version of clicking. Anyways I felt different and I had questions like "is this it? nothing more?". The immediate reaction was that I felt doubt if I truly clicked. So i guess time will tell if i did. - Nawkin" source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hi I'm 23 from Australia. It ended up being fairly long but I did my best to take out unimportant details.
I first started by stumbling across this video: [/www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dve2GRh05BYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve2GRh05BYo] I didn't quite understand it all the first time I watched it but I understood enough so that I was able to come to an understanding of why many things in my life went the way they did through realizing the underlying mechanics. After this I couldn't just ignore it, it seemed to important.
This then lead me onto watching the podcasts which gave me many insights that I wasn't aware of that really allowed to begin seeing things from a different perspective. The whole time I was doing it I was trying to achieve this 'making sense' state that Athene always talked about. I then started questioning my actions and beliefs and came to the realization that I was doing so many things for other people and was only tricking myself into believing it was my choice. I then gave up soccer which I had played my whole life up until this point and also gaming. This whole process took about a month from when I first saw the video. I also was very surprised when I told friends I quit soccer and they didn't seem to care, as I had heavily attached 'being a soccer player' to my identity. I however wasn't aware I was trying to uphold an identity at this time. days went on and I kept watching podcasts and continued to shape my actions in line with my new beliefs, one day however when I was constantly asking myself what is the best thing to do I was walking through my house and saw something should be cleaned. I suddenly felt a lot negative emotion pushing me away from this (as it goes against comfort), a second after it happened I started to walk away but I was aware of this emotion now and rather then just accept it I decided to just do the cleaning anyway. It was at this moment I felt the effects that would correlate with clicking, eurphoria, etc. I suddenly felt really good about doing this action that I believed I should be doing. This all happened a few days before Katarina clicked (first person to click) so the click then didn't exist. So I just went on about my day, unaware of what happened and eventually went back to old habits.
Over the next few months I had periods where I would think I had clicked and then periods where I would say I definitely haven't. I tried the steps and the yo-yo method to try and get the same feeling of effortless drive to do what is logical but I couldn't achieve it again. I gained a lot of awareness since the beginning of this journey though so I was unable to go back to my old life style, I would just have too much duality. I learn't a lot by looking at why I did things and also found that a lot of my actions were for validation, even though I really didn't think I was to begin with. I then went through a stage of doubting the click but after having a talk with Ben from the compound and I think this was really important for me because this whole time I had no one to talk to about this and everyone around me would do actions that no longer make sense to me, so I even had to question my own sanity. I believe it was either the acceptance I got from Ben that allowed me to trust more in my awareness or the thought experiment he told me but during the talk I felt the same euphoric feeling and then desire to do what is logical.
These are the thought experiment in case they can help someone else. "you are on a space ship with the most intelligent person alive, his body is full of cancers and he will die any day. his brain however is fine and the technology is on board to swap your brain with his. Do you do it?" When I first thought about this I felt duality and came to the conclusion of reluctantly yes. This helped me to realize that even though I thought I had a mostly logical mindset I still had certain barriers. Since then I've realized that I was still identifying with my thoughts and am still learning how to optimize myself constantly. I still can't be sure what the click is, it may just be the moment when you let go of an emotion connected to a concept in which gave you duality, which would mean its a placebo. I believe this may be the case because when I first clicked I didn't constantly want to do what is logical or feel bad when I did illogical things either, I just felt a great relief that I no longer emotionally felt differently about what I rationally thought. I also have many mini-euphoric moments when I made many new realizations. I do however have a strong desire to make sense/ be logical/ consistent but I think that is most likely the case because of my new awareness/world view. I would also like to mention to anyone trying to click that emotional intelligence is extremely helpful to learn.
TLDR; Clicked through systematically learning to love logic. Lost it via not being aware that I clicked. re-clicked when I was able to talk and feel confident about my awareness/made realization I wasn't completely being logical. Podcasts really helped. Since the beginning I'm happier, healthier, more intelligent, more rational, got a HUGE awareness boost, extremely selfless, more accurate moral compass and I think most important, I have purpose." source
"I had considered myself a clicker in the past because I went through a change which made doing things that I thought was logical come natural, I truly wanted to do them. However as time went on I went through experiences that weren't as promised or expected, this then lead to me slowly letting go of all of my logical values and retreating back to what gave me good experiences. Last night I began thinking about why is it that I know all of this information is correct, yet I can go against my own health and not even care, it would have to take something that was immediately life threatening for me to make proper change. So I then began to compare how I currently was to what I knew was logical and what differentiated me from that other version that I could be. I also thought about why is it that this all seems really simple and yet there is really not that many clickers. I began back-tracing why Athene changes up his methods and why he says what he says, I know that Athene doesn't really care about right action at his essence, its just like an added layer on top of logic, so why does he try to push that you should do things because its the right thing to do or because it will feel good. This is when I made the realization, what I had basically done is inserted a layer of logic but fundamentally, I was still expecting good experiences. I brute forced the value in there through dissonance and positive emotional connection to it but because over a long time period I realized there are times logic doesn't give you good experiences so I began pushing it away as I was only using being logical to achieve my good experiences. However when you look at everything rationally its obvious life isn't about good experiences and thought about all the negative things that could happen if life continued on this path. I realized through these thoughts that the reason I didn't want to be logical was because at my core of what I valued and chased after as purpose was not reality it self, so obviously I didn't care if I went against reality to get these good experiences. I woke up today and I've changed so much, I want to eat what I know is logical to eat, I want to exercise because I know its benefits, when I interpret situations I look for the logic of it rather then the good experiences I can extract from it. I'm confident in my rational beliefs because they are aligned with reality and what I want above all is to be aligned with reality. My next steps are going to be gathering money asap to go and work with the Athene crew, hopefully I will be accepted.
This is where it leads into the stream. In clicking for myself it gave me insights into how these values control me based on looking at all of my past experiences. There would be certain times in my past where I would do something but I would go "next level" with it, I would go really hardcore and excel past what I normally could output. It was because at certain periods what I valued (the thing I wanted to achieve) went above my own experience. So I began thinking, why is it that certain people can do things and achieve a lot through it, e.g. body builders, sporting stars, gamers, business people. The people that really achieve a lot and are hailed as great people in society are the ones that put their own good experiences aside to achieve something else and all that a clicker is, is someone that values doing what is logical within the framework reality (life itself) as their top priority.
So Athene's realization is that people are unable to change their choices because you do not have the "code" to do it, unless experienced reality forces the change. I think myself is proof enough that it is possible and hopefully this post will help in calibrating his approach. The issue I believe is that Athene is not targeting the direct cause enough, he is speaking to peoples current frameworks wants and thinking that will change someone but the moment it goes against the order of their value system people won't care. [/i.imgur.com/cwBv29r.pngJ Rough explanation]. People's logic is aligned with what gives them good experiences, so if you try and appeal to right action but that goes against their fun or enjoyment then obviously they wont care about it anymore. That's why on stream when you appeal to right action you will create neural pathways that care about doing the right thing and depending on how much influence they are made to have they might feel like donating money or truly doing the right thing but the moment they go back to their normal framework where good experience is central, it will just fade away, there is nothing holding these values in place. Same with saying it will give you "good experiences". People already know what gives them good experiences, the lifestyle you are offering goes against what they think is a good experience even is so they don't even understand that they would fundamentally value different things. So I think its not accurate to say that people don't have the choice to change, its that from their current value system the changes you are offering do not look appealing. If your reasoning is calibrated to doing what is enjoyable and you try to insert a belief that says you should work out and you make people value it through explaining why its beneficial, sure for a little bit they might work out but the reason that makes it beneficial is not something they value, so it will unlikely last. You could also look at it from reversed roles, everyone in chat cares about logic and you are trying to convince them to value doing things that are fun and enjoyable. No matter how hard you try and say that drinking alcohol or eating cake is good, even if you say "it will make you more happy", they already know what makes them happy, its doing what is logical. You might be really convincing one day and find an approach that makes them start eating cake but it would never last because what you fundamentally value is not the good experience you can get from eating cake, so why would you keep doing it?
If I was to create steps around what I just said it would be this (rough draft)
Step 1: Look at your own experiences (go through your day) and write down how what you valued at the time influenced how you acted. For each experience write a list of the values in the order you were caring about them. This step is about figuring out your own value system to make you realize on a personal level how you are being influenced.
Step 2: Go through the same experiences and write down the list in order of what values you should of valued. What you should of valued is defined by what is logical within reality, what is true, facts, science. This step is about creating a rough framework of what being logical looks like. It's important to make sure your ideal values reflect what is logical to objective reality.
Step 3: Think about how the world would change if people valued the things in the order you listed and how it would go if people kept valuing what you already value. This step is about realizing that your decisions are being governed by a value that is not compatible with reality. e.g. If you value power and wealth above doing what is right and then enter politics, obviously you wouldn't mind being corrupt as all of your decisions would be aimed at getting you more power and money before doing what is right" source
Country: The Netherlands
PreClick Core Value: Safety/Love
PreClick Believes/Troubles: Finding core value, Seeing that Love is flawed
Using the old steps.
I am a university student and I was really skeptical about ‘clicking’, because it did not sound really scientific to me. It also sounded ‘too good to be true’. However, the effects of clicking were promised to be so beneficial, that I convinced myself to really try it. I thought: it will probably not work, but if it does, I am so much more effective in everything.
My situation PreClick: I already pretty logical. I already had worked on being emotionally detached from my believe in God. I tried to live in the ‘now’ and meditated a lot. I also tried to be vegan (which kinda worked) and tried to work out (which didn’t really work).
Step 1: This step I skipped at first. I already trusted logic. Step 2: I really felt comfortable staying in bed when I had to do certain things and I also kept playing Hearthstone which I actually dislike (I get frustrated by it). I did the step 2 guided meditation of Tania and came to the conclusion that comfort must be my core value. Step 3: Again guided meditation by Tania (step 3). I felt really emotional when doing the meditation. I deeply cared for this inner child that was hiding from me. I also started shaking during the meditation (many emotions that were there).
I did all this in the evening before going to sleep. That evening I notice details in my room and felt a bit happy. However, the next day I felt terrible: I had no motivation to do anything and I felt bad. This didn’t work, so I tried again.
So I asked myself and wrote everything down: What does really drive me? What is my motivation? The answer for me was easy: Love. Love is really important in my religion and it is strongly linked to the nature of God (hence the capital letter in Love). This is love for others, unconditional love. Then I asked it again: Why? Why do you need Love? It brings me purpose in life. Why are you wanting purpose in life? Well, without it I am nothing! No no, I need purpose, it makes me feel safe.. Aha, safety. Does this explain Hearthstone as well? Why do you play Hearthstone? The answer now came without effort: It distracts me and I hide to feel safe. Safely playing games, not caring about the important stuff.
Then I had to do step 1 again, but this time coupled to my core value. I finally realized that I don’t have to give up safety! No, logic will give me safety.
One thing still bothered me when trying to do step 2. My trust in love was really strong and I could not see what would EVER be wrong with Love. Why is logic better? I couldn’t figure it out myself and asked this to a clicker on the discord. He answer this regarding helping others in the world:
When I read this it was like a smack in my face. Boom. Reality. I really experienced a disconnect between my love and reality. Adopting logic would resolve this disconnect.
And now I was ready to do step 3 again. I did the guided Tania meditation and told my inner child just that what I had learned myself a few hours before that. I started shaking again and felt really emotional. Again I deeply cared for my inner child, but this time I felt like I really understood him.
The next day I felt strange. I didn’t really know what was going on with myself. I ended up on discord and talked with clickers. I told about my experience and they assured me that this dissonance was normal. While talking, at a sudden moment (I forgot why), I noticed this really happy feeling inside me. I looked outside and saw my tree in the garden and became even happier. I quickly went to step 4 (as the clicker suggested to me) and read about the identity death. I asked the clicker: how does this work? He asked me: what if they make a clone of you.. exactly you.. I was surprised to see myself typ: Don’t care.. Wouldn't matter. I suddenly didn’t value my identity that much anymore. I really felt euphoric at the moment: “I am so happy right now.”
I promised to give myself a week to really see if I clicked (I was still skeptical: euphoric feelings can go away).
Now it’s a week later and I noticed many changes in my behavior that really surprised me:
- I have no desire to eat chips (which I did a lot).
- I have a much easier time in following a plant-based diet. I don’t experience this urge to sometimes still eat animal foods.
- I am able to keep working for my study with almost no breaks. Normally, I would need to ‘relax’ in the evening after such a intense day to play some games… I completely lost that urge.
- My desire to help others is even stronger, especially emotionally.
- I feel much more confident without some ego I have to defend.
- When I experience dissonance I want to understand why. This goes automatic, before the click I did this ‘manually’.
I am really glad I took the time to make the click, that seemed to good to be true. source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Name: Daniel Age: 23 Born in Romania, living in Spain. Previous core value: Comfort/Safety
I have been conciously aware of the click subject since it's begginings, but that made no difference in my life what so ever. I think today it happened, I decided to ask for some advice from the AtheneCrew and Discord on what should I do in order to click myself since I always knew it was the right decision. So I went and re watched the 4 steps video but my inner child honestly couldnt care less about it, so I searched for another plan. I knew that on a councious level, I'm prepared, but my inner child still wanted to play around and not listen. So I decided to give a try to the ASMR video Reese did on clicking. Never I could imagine that a guided trance could be this effective...
I first sat down on my chair, the most comfortable that I could and started listening and following the steps, 20 minutes in and I got interrupted by noises in the house. I was already pretty deep into the trance so emotionally it did not affect me that much and I just took action to avoid distraction. I closed my door, put on the headphones and layed on the bed in the most comfortable position I could and restarted the video. This time it was a bit more difficult to follow due to the previous experience and not being completly sure if I could finish listening this time due to more possible distractions. But I tried it and followed it as best as my imagination could, loved being on the beach, floating in the water and such, and I do understand what kind of tricking the brain technique this is. This is how you let the subcouncious know that the waves in the water are actually the probabilistic waves of reality and so on, it was beautiful. Following the steps, I find myself in this beautiful jungle filled with life in harmony, safe, calm, I do as the voice says and I go through the door, where the sphere awaits. I was urging to touch and hug it because I was already guessing that, that was what logic looked like. Perfect simetry and harmony inside reality. But I did not touch it untill the voice said so, when I did, I actually let out some tears with my eyes closed and I felt such an euphoric feeling that any other drug could ever give me. I felt like understanding, I felt accepted and I felt like nothing else mattered. I think that I finnaly embraced on a subcouncious level that logic and it's beauty is the guidance that we should all follow. This literally happened 45 minutes from when I'm writing this text.
I will continue to improve and use logic as guidance and I will keep everyone in touch with how this develops. Right now I feel better than ever." source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"I asked my friend yesterday, "why does everyone abandon me when I only want them to grow and move forward?". He told me, "because you treat everyone like dirt." (I cleaned up the language considerably)
A while after I read about the psychology of a bully. And it turns out, a bully (for the lack of a better term, but stick with me here) attacks others emotionally. How does he do this? By intuitively recognizing insecurities in others and exploiting them. Why does he do this? The answer is a double edged sword, on the one hand it gives him a sense of power and excitement, and on the other it blinds him of his own deeply rooted negative feelings. It also blinds him of the fact that he needs to pick himself up.
The best metaphor is to see the bully as someone who pushes other people below the water in order to stay above the water himself, this act gives him power and excitement and is many times seen as harmless fun. As long as there are people to victimize he doesn't have to deal with the fact that he is doing it because he doesn't feel like he can swim on his own.
This is what happened to me, as soon as there was no one left in the metaphorical pool, I started to sink.
The victim of a bully is usually a sensitive person. After the sensitive person has been bullied he/she tends to repeat the behavior towards themselves. Because the bully taught them how to look at themselves, he altered their self image. In most cases the sensitive person then once again repeats the cycle and starts attacking others, making them feel the feelings that belongs to him.
It is interesting to note that sympathizing with a bully is the wrong approach. Since the bully is unaware of his deeply rooted negativity. In fact, a bully has high self confidence. His self image is overblown. A bully almost sees a celebrity/model in the mirror.
This is all very personal, but it does provide context for a something more general and deeper. To explain we can use the deep feelings of the bully: What exactly is the feeling deep inside the bully that makes him attack other people? Shame. The painful emotion that we experience when our actions contradict our self image. Synonyms for this is a feeling of incompetence, a feeling of not having enough value.
This is where things get important. There are four common ways to deal with this feeling of worthlessness and I'm going to just copy and paste them here:
-Withdrawal hides your feelings from others and it can lead to being isolated and depressed. This response is common in loneliness.
-An avoidance response occurs when a person refuses to face what’s going on. The avoidance may involve addictive behaviors.
-Another response to shame, attacking oneself in a psychologically or physically self-injurious way, is like giving in or giving up, and involves blaming yourself.
-People who bully use the most destructive shame response: they attack others. The attack other response to shame occurs when a person feels psychologically endangered and incompetent.
If any one of these four responses seem familiar to you, they should. As I have mentioned the reason for the feeling of shame is when what you do doesn't line up with how you see yourself (or how society has conditioned you to see yourself, as is the case with woman feeling worthless because of having a different body structure than the cultural norm for beauty for example). This is important so I will repeat it in other words: When there is a contradiction in your identity and what you objectively are, you experience shame. (This is only the case when your self image is overblown due to whatever reason, the reason is never a healthy one)
So for my case, the feeling of courage and power and excitement that came from attacking others was there to blind me or protect me in a certain sense, from the feelings I had inside that stem from a broken self image. I don't know if this is the case in other responses to shame, but I have noticed that your core value is there not to only bring you safety, it's there to mask the way you really feel. A core value, in my case at least, is always connected to another emotion on the opposite side of the same coin.
In my previous testimony I mentioned that my core value used to be perfection. I notice now that it was only my identity. I was able to do away with my identity when I felt safe. But all the while I never understood that my core value is linked to validation.
When I asked my inner child why the action figure (I chose this above a teddy bear because my action figures were a big part of my childhood) he is holding on to is so important to him, he showed me that the action figure is brave. I asked him why, and he told me because he's STRONG. Why? because he needs to fight villains.
So my need for existential balance only came when I felt the courage, power and excitement from pushing others under water, form victimizing others... Why? because that's how I literally learned to deal with being victimized myself.
I only felt balance when others were around, otherwise I would sink, I only felt strong and brave when I let others feel incompetence and shame. Always being above the water gave me the identity that I am smart and perfect and brave. I had high self confidence, but zero self value.
I then allowed myself to feel the emotion that I have been attacking others to avoid, I felt it for a solid two or three hours. But accepting that this is how I feel for a full duration of a few hours, was almost like a flu shot. It introduced me to a manageable dose of the virus, and now I am immune.
My self esteem boosted dramatically after that, and so did my ability to give myself concrete answers to pressing problems while dealing with the uncertainty that I might be wrong or incompetent around every corner.
Man, dealing with a lifetime of traumatic experiences has been rewarding, I feel like I truly belong for the first time in my entire life.
I hope this account will shed light on the different ways in which your identity, core value, feeling of existential balance, and actions are connected and how they express themselves. As this is what it has done for me.
Lastly, something that really helps you see the gap between how you see yourself and your actions is to take a pen and paper, and spend 5 mins writing this down: Draw a vertical line down the middle of a page, write on the one side what you feel when you think about yourself, and on the other, what you feel when you think about the world. This is proven to help guys, it's not just.. yeah, it works. Notice the discrepancy or similarities.
In the same breath, writing down experiences from your childhood also helps, like an act of debriefing. It definitely gives you the information needed to go through step 2 if you went through trauma or very uncomfortable times as a child and onward.
Thank you for reading this and please up vote or share.
p.s. It needs to be said that Athene has already discussed this idea in his podcast, check his podcast #63 and read his book a simple click." source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hey! My name is Patrick and I am 22 years old. I live in Germany and I am currently studying computer sience. I tried to click for about 2 months now and I had several ups and downs.
Since there are many Testimonies that explain the 4 steps very detailed I won´t go much into that and instead focus on the thing that was pushing me back again and again.
Trusting logic was not that hard for me because I already listened to the podcast from the beginning and I always tried to implement the things that sounded logical to me into my life (that didn´t worked so well) and therefor I already craved for it and I had build up strong emotions over my failures because I knew that these things would benefit my life immensely. At the beginning of december I was pretty sure that I had figured out my core value which was validation. It was quite easy to discover after i thought about all my previous and especially my current actions. For step 3 I used the guided meditation and it worked realy well, because I had an easy time imagining my inner child as a younger version of my self and I could recall the emotions that I had by that time (loneliness, fear, anger) and connect them to validation. Now to step 4 and why I felt back so many times. To understand the situation you need to know that I have a very close connection to my family and I was always very active in my social life. The problem with that was every time after I had the feeling that I clicked I needed to go back to the normal "stuff" and was confronted with my family and my social life which was somehow too much at once. After several failed attemps I decided to use my preparation time for exams (as an excuse to not answer calls or going to family meetings) to completely shut down everything else and only focuss on clicking. After I had the feeling that I clicked I slowly started entering my social life again. The way I did it was step by step. I found that very useful because it allowed me to analyze every situation and pinpoint the emotions that my remnants of the past were causing. That way I could keep it up and strengthen it to a point where I am now relatively sure that it will stay no matter what (1 week in).
A few things that have changed after the click:
- I feel completly clear headed
- I instantly stopped smoking (was addicted for about 6 years now)
- Before I was very tense in social situations -> now i am completly realxed
- I wanted to talk to other people about it (that was an intense experience .. :D)
- I have such an easy time learning since it doesn´t feel forced anymore
Short story: Instead of "clicking" and going directly back to normal life, I decided to take it very slow and step by step to overcome the immense flood of social situations. That allowed me to deal with my remnants of the past and strengthen my current state.
Sorry for bad english! :p" source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hi! I'm Lucas from Argentina, I'm 18 years old, I clicked one month ago and I've decided to finally write about it. Been watching Athene's content since League days and haven't stopped since. To give a little bit of background information, my past core value was comfort/social validation. Those values were channeled via gaming and drinking/going out.
Gaming was my safe zone, since I grow up in an environment where my parents were arguing almost every day, I found silence/tranquility in gaming. Used to play WoW and League, and recently Starcraft, but we'll get back to that later in this post. For the social validation part, I felt that I needed to belong somewhere, even though I knew in a deep place that I never liked going out or drinking. It felt right at the time, cause I was getting validation from my social environment (friends from school), giving a false sensation of 'being part' to my identity? The 'being part of' also was channeled through metal music, since in my 14-15 I identified myself as a 'metalhead only metal else is crap'. That's gone now.
Also, I think watching Elementary/Sherlock helped a lot with this, since that time (around 3 or 4 years ago) I started behaving in logical ways. Quitting sugar, starting the gym, eating healthier, thinking in 'chances' and not being attached to the outcome of an action (with more knowledge I understood that it is defined as probabilistic thinking and result oriented). So, I had the ground base to start re-inforcing that way of thinking with the click. Even though I say that, I managed to slip back to the comfort zone of gaming and social validation without doing anything about it. When that happened, duality was present when not doing things that made sense. Let's say playing games when I could expand my knowledge in others things, or working out.
(At this point, we could add that I possibly had low self-esteem but I cannot put it anywhere cause I've been always a positive person, happy and stable.)
Athene's videos helped a lot with my developing (intelligence, emotional intelligence most of all), the old Ryze videos where he talked about the psychology about the game, the talks with Reese, and every bit of knowledge I could grasp helped with this.
This helped a lot in the development of my own way of critical thinking, never taking any opinion or source as if they were the absolute truth, always searching and reviewing, formulating my own opinion on things, luckily, most of them made sense.
With that out of the way, I clicked with the old steps and the new ones just re-affirmed the click. Even though since the beginning I felt that I clicked, the new ones helped putting those thoughts into words, re-assuring the effects from it. That's why I took a long time to write about it, cause I didn't want to offer myself as a helper if I had the wrong information, since I approached the click in a scientific way (A clear example, what happens if I eat this cookie? How would it affect me? In a good or bad way? Do I experience dissonence when doing it? How bad it is? Do I feel like giving up or gaining a beneficial behavior? This kind of train thought was present in the whole click experience).
Guided meditation helped a lot, especially the 2nd and 3rd. The image of my inner child was really vivid, and imagining myself being unhappy due to the things I thought made me happy brought me to almost crying, since I realized the damage I was doing to myself and to my environment. At the end of the 3rd audio, I was repeating 'thank you' to logic (best version of myself being logical), lots of times, cause I felt protected by it, the hug felt like if I was hugging a past me that felt relief and happines due to finally being dettached from my old core values, which they felt disgusting at the end of the visualization. Rush of dopamine followed by a relief feeling of 'this is me. finally I understand it.' Thoughts of past/future dissaparead, I only use the past thoughts as a tool, I like to define experience as sample tubes, since for me, they are samples to help measuring my actions in the future.
The feeling of being in the present is amazing, you just feel there, in a constant flow, in complete harmony. The need of discipline and motivation instantly dissapeared. Let's say that programming felt like a drag, even though I liked it, gaming kicked in and was always saying that I could be playing instead of doing that. One thing that always bothered me was, let's say I have an appointment in 3 hours. I always remembered myself that there are 3 hours left to the appointment, 2 hours left and so on. That made me feel anxious, and now it's completly gone.
I haven't played a single game since the click. League and Starcraft doesn't attract to me anymore, I just know that there are better things to do that mantaining a certain ranking which, truth be told, only I care about it. They just feel bad, so the negative emotion connected to my old core values feels 'in place'. Same goes for drinking and social interactions that could damage my development/environment.
I've been programming everyday since the click and getting into learning new things, since that feels like the most logical thing I can do at the moment.
Now, the patterns of social conditioning and the harm that they're doing to the people around me feels always present. It's like you can't unsee it, cause you see everything so clear.
As a general tip, I would like to say that in my experience, listening to the podcast first would have made the proccess a little bit easier, since there's a lot of knowledge in there. Trusting logic since the first step is crucial. One thing that helped me a lot, was when Athene said something like 'you can't stop doing things cause they don't feel logical, you gotta think for yourself what makes sense and what does not'. Don't quote me on this, since I can't really remember what podcast it was, (around 30/20) but that podcast expanded the way I view the new paradigm and I understood it better since then.
And don't understimate all the content that is in here. Every little bit counts.
That's it. If you want help, you can talk to me in private, will be joining discord pretty soon.
Thanks for reading and have a nice day/night! <3" source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hi, my names Mike. For the past week or so I've been focusing a lot of time and mental energy into learning how to click and making the click itself happen. I think at this point I have done it. The reason why I say I think is mainly because I did not feel any euphoric or enlightened feeling when I made the click, like most people seem to report. Instead I felt the clear minded and constant state of flow that is talked about in the wiki that normally comes after the click, the feeling of needing to understand everything logically and no longer having conflict within myself. This is a question in itself, can you click without experiencing some kind of enlightened/euphoric state? though with that said right now the question in my head that I am craving an answer to is the title of this post, now that I've clicked, whats the next step? The first thing I thought of doing was helping the closest person to me, my girlfriend. my first thought was to get her to click, which I know is something that I can do to positively effect the people around me. This, I don't see a problem with, what I thought next is what I need help with. First though I will need to add some context to the situation. Me and my girlfriend are both reasonably young, both being the age of 17. For multiple years now my girlfriend has had a very toxic and hostile home environment, one that I can tell drains her everyday and causes her so much pain emotionally but also physically. This, in my eyes has a massive impact on the rest of her life, whether it be her not trying as hard in school to her incorporating drugs as a part of her life. With her almost being the age of 18 aka the age that she can move out from her toxic home environment, she is looking for ways to have enough money for an apartment. Now, my question is: is it correct to help her financially so she could move out and live on her own since it would greatly impact her life for the better and increase the chances that she has the mental stability to click? On top of that the money would have a far lesser impact on my life since my home situation is pretty stable. or am I thinking too small scale? Is there a better way I could be using my time or that same money to have a bigger impact? Is it secretly selfish since I wanna help someone I'm close with rather then someone more in need? Also I would like to end with a more broad question, Since I'm 17 and cannot yet consider moving in with the athene crew, what are things I can do in my immediate future to have the biggest impact?" source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hi, my name is Andrew, I'm 23 and from Ukraine.
I will try to share with you my observations, with intent they might help. First part: how I clicked and what I think you could focus on if you still trying to, but had no results. Second part: some thoughts about way of thinking people use in day-to-day live.
My “click” happened around two month ago, after I had read post from [/www.reddit.com/r/Makingsense/comments/5f61os/a%20detailed%20account%20of%20my%20click%20darnock/ Darnock58]. In retrospect, before that I didn't put emphasis on visualization part of the process, and having mostly auditory brain I need some time to actually see images that was clear and without 'mental fog'. Again, looking back it's hard to say what exactly was crucial thing, because it's probably for everyone a different nuance, but through many of testimonies we can see the similarities.
- Most clear thing - this is an emotional process backed up with visualization, only your imagination is the limit here. So, imagine current core value as a simple thing, but one that easily connected with feelings in the body: example will be a heavy bag that you carry trough your life with all the useless thing that you may find important. Let go that bag, spread your shoulders, straighten up your back and see how this makes you feel. Collapsing room, wet cloak, dark, scary forest of ignorance, an insect that slowly eats you - go as strong in this, as needed.
- Second one would be: you need to listen to your emotions and thoughts, and that's becomes harder, when there is a distractions. But be aware, waiting for the best moment to occur is nothing more that procrastination, it never will occur, so, do what you can to cut distractions in an adequate degree. Main source of it - probably your PC. Twitch, YouTube, Facebook, there never will be a shortage of a content, you always will find something to distract yourself with. So try to turn off your PC, just sit in silent room for couple of hours. There are choices, tools that you could use to click – documentaries, videos, etc., but sometimes this choices creates paralyzing effect, deep insight you may put responsibility on external things, or people. Perhaps we can see that when Athene stops actively speaking about the click on stream and don't create dissonance directly, it seems that very few people find this 'awareness update' worth pursuing. Work with what you already have, don't give up easily.
- Third thing will be honesty. I wish I could just say something that will 'hit home', but “being honest with yourself” is more personal thing to each of us. Try this approach: Honesty is opposite to lie. A lie you believe in, and don't scrutinize in yourself. A lie can't stand the test of consistency, a lie doesn't like attention to details, and skeptical approach to it will eventually highlight the flaws. By finding lies you could clear things up and connect the patterns, a soul-searching detective work, you may call it. With determination try to check each of your suspicious thought, each of your actions and inactions, cause and effect relationship as though you investigate a crime.
Now I would like to describe another observations, that I find interesting. As we face decisions in life, we tend to follow well-developed algorithm, we have mechanism that works and this mechanism made us who we are today. It's about our way of thinking, way of thinking that dominate the world because it's very fast, requires a small amount of energy, and great for survival. Imagine, you have a choice that you confronted with, now you need to decide: chose one thing or the other, how do you make this choice? And here is how it works:
- First your brain appeals to your memory, it's tied to the emotional part – from that region of the brain you get two kinds of responses – positive or negative, so you had good or bad experience in similar situation before. After that you have easier time choosing one thing over the other. But what if you don't have experience of similar kind, you don't have emotions connected with decision you faced with, what then?
- Then you reach in to intersubjectivity:
As you can see, with this system you could make fast decisions without using a lot of energy and time, but, there is a cost to it. Your decisions are not thought through, and many times they isn't even yours!
But, there is another way. It's harder, use a lot more time and energy, focused on long-term and surely, may alienate you from others:
- Thinking for yourself. In some sense clicking is a way to teach you that. This way of thinking requires you to form your argumentation based on logic, reality and probabilities. You strip and boil down everything to smallest details and start building from ground up. You don't look for opinions of others as something to rely on, it nothing more than information, useful or otherwise not. And maybe this something that scares people in “clicking”, because you start to understand that there not so much value in things that people say. Your own views may be full of flaws, and by the end of the day, you may feel alone with nobody to help. That's not true, an idea that you need to understand - Logic with you. Knowledge. And most importantly, like-minded people. You are not alone!
Best regards, go fuckin' click already! ;D" source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
This is my second post here. The first post gave me a lot of answers but it all boiled down to something more complex. I will try to write this as smoothe as possible due to all the happy hormones rushing through my body. :))
I have been trying to click for a very long time. I think it has been a couple of months now. Within that time I have pseudo clicked. I thought I clicked two months ago but I kept making too much illogical desicions. I backwards rationalized that it was "just remenants from my past". But this morning, I finally took time to dig down deep to my inner child. I already knew that I had grown up with low self esteem and comfort as a core value. But I didn't know why my inner child hung on to it all these years.
It all boiled down to when I was around 4 years old. One particular morning changed it all. I was driving to my daycare center with my mom. Suddenly out of nowhere, a dog ran out into the road. My mom love animals so her first instinct was to dodge the dog. The dog was saved but the car went down the ditch on the side of the road and we rolled around. The car was totally crashed and the roof was almost crushing my head. Me and my mom survived but she got injured. She got a wiplash injury in her neck and she would never be allowed to work again. Her injury lead too easily triggered moodswings and it affected me without her wanting to. She never physically hurt me, but she would often scream and break things if I did something wrong. After getting mad, she comforted me with food and love though. This lead me to develop low self asteem during my younger years. I was a bit socially insecure and felt more safe inside watching movies or eating food. When I was around 6, I got my first game. A Playstation 1. Now I didn't have to feel my insecurities anymore. I finally found something that could take me away from the real world. Everything got calmer, because I only existed my room to eat, then I went back to play games. The games have been there since then. Games, movies and music. But mostly games.
I have been having low self asteem for 20 years now - clinging on to comfort. But today I finally clicked with the visual yo-yo technique. Now I finally understand why I stayed in toxic relationships with girls. Because I hid from the problems within the games. Now I understand why I always was bad at sports growing up. Now I understand why I seeked drugs/partying as comfort when I got older. I felt more safe by escaping the real world. I seeked comfort. It all makes sense now. Everything is finally explained to me - I am saved.
Some points that helped me to click: - Working out. I have been working out for 5 years. It helped me to get outside the comfort bubble. - Eating more healthy. I stopped eating sugar while trying to click and it helped a lot. I could focus more and the thoughts got less blurry. - Meditation. - Daily journals about my process. - All the podcasts on repeat - All the youtube vids - Ultimate guide to click - Reddit :))
Big thanks to logic and the beauty of probabilities that put us here today. Guided by logic, through Athene and his crew. Logic opened it's own eyes and can now see itself.
Feel free to write if you have any questions. I'll gladly answer. Would have been a book if I detailed everything down. :))" source
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"I'm a 22 year old guy from Finland who probably always have had comfort as my core value. My life is nothing exceptional, I've had a very normal life and done normal things. Never had any major issues such as being broke or shit like that which easily can result in a miserable life.
However from as long as I can remember I have always been in the thought of NEVER wanting to work a 9-5 job. Even when I was 15 years old I thought about how much it would suck to have a 9-5 job for the rest of my life (especially when I had the knowledge that there were people who didn't have to work a 9-5 job and yet survived, and even made more money from their source of income than a 9-5 job). Of course it ended with me just coping with life so I studied to become an electrician which was just meh. It was ok and I was good at what I was doing but the thought of working any 9-5 job sucked so much energy out of me. Of course I couldn't accept the thought of having to work a 9-5 job for my entire life, so I was Googling on how to make money from home and got interested in internet marketing. This is still around the age of 15 btw. I started to build some websites and learned some internet marketing techniques and thought "Yes, this is what I want to do! I'm gonna do this and be happy instead of working a shitty 9-5 job!".
Of course the plan didn't go according to that because comfort was holding me back from focusing on building my websites and learning more about IM. I spent 90 % of my free time playing video games and 10 % on learning about intermet marketing. Years went by and I didn't earn shit the first years because I sucked dick at what I was doing.
Fast forward to 6-7 years later of sloppy website building and half assed earnings. Last year I was 22, I still am. I was unhappy because I was working a 9-5 job. Not as an electrician, but as a ferry driver. A ferry driver where they call you one day in advance asking you to come and work from 22:00-06:00 for 5 days straight, then be free for 2-3 days and start working 06:00-14:00 for 3-4 days. Shift work you know. Should be called suicide work, at least considering how much it hurt my body. And the work is driving cars and trucks back and forth across a 450 meters lake. Each run takes 3 minutes and you go back and forth 8 hours straight with a couple small food breaks.
So, the point is that this was around 2 weeks ago. I was doing meh on internet marketing which I had been working on for years. Maybe $50 a day average, unstable, not enough to quit my job. So I was still working my 9-5 awful stressfull job which slowly killed me and on the side I did internet marketing with the tiny bit of energy I had left after doing the ferry work.
6 days ago I had tonsillectomy. Surgery went fine, it was all chill. I'm not afraid of hospitals at all, it's the other way around, I feel safe at hospitals. All good. It was required to stay at the hospital overnight for observation which I did. The next day all was good and I got released from the hospital. Then I went home (and at this point I had been interested in clicking and have understood the concept of it for probably 3-4 months with a few failed attempts at clicking). Two days after the surgery when I was home alone. I was sitting at my PC working at one of my websites. I felt blood coming from my throat. I swallowed it. Then there was more, and more and I felt that the blood was actually pouring from my throat. The risk for post tonsillectomy bleeding is about 7% according to my surgeon. And I'm one of them. :D
However, without panicking, just thinking logically, I went to the fridge and searched for ice to suck on, because cool ice helps to stop bleeding by coagulating the blood faster or whatever. I didn't find any ice so I just kept swallowing blood every second in order to not spill it all over the floor. I went to my neighbour who wasn't home. I knew where his key was, so I used it to unlock his door and just stomped straight into his house and opened his freezer. No damn ice in there either! At this point I had been bleeding for about 10-15 minutes and I decided to call the ambulance. So I did. And they came. And they drove me to the hospital. I was bleeding and bleeding all the way to the hospital. When we arrived at the hospital there was a team of 4-5 people waiting for me and I was still bleeding. You know it sucks to bleed from your throat because you can't stop the bleeding cause of 1. gag reflex, 2. you can't breathe if you put something in your throat to stop the bleeding.
At the hospital they started ordering blood and got ready to put be to sleep and perform a surgery where they would burn my wound shut. However they wanted to wait just a few more minutes to see if the bleeding would stop by itself. At this point I was sitting on a stretcher with nurses around me and IV nutrition support and just sat there and let all of the blood flow from my nose and mouth into a paper bag. My mom was also there and I joked with her by showing my red bloody teeth asking "Do I look good? :D". Obviously it looked pretty bad because she had to go outside of the room cause it probably looked pretty damn disgusting to be honest. Shorty after I started feeling extremely dizzy and I had to lay down. Then it almost went black, you know when you are at the point of almost fainting. You just hear how the nurses around you are talking and and doing their things. Pretty cool feling, nothing scary or bad at all. Just very exhausting. 5 min later I started to feel better and the bleeding had almost stopped completely and I was back.
With tons of blood that had been flowing from my nose and mouth along with disgusting blobs of coagulated blood that was dingling and hanging in my mouth, outside my mouth and from my throat. The next step was to let the ENT use a very long nose pliers which he shoved deep back in my throat in order to grab the strips of coagulated blood. I got a huge vomiting reflex because the ENT who performed this shit on me had a big L shaped tool which he used to push down my tongue for better visibility which caused me to almost vomit. It would've been nice to vomit a lot of blood over him. None of the blood in my stomach came up though, as a result of the vomit reflex I instead swallowed a huge blob of coagulated blood which in turn gave me another vomit reflex, but no blood came up so all good. That was nice... Then I stayed a few hours at the hospital for observation and after that I got home.
During the next day my mom refused to let me go home alone again in case this would happen a second time. So I spent the next days at my moms place (I'm still in recovery process so I'm still at her place) and she has been interested in tai chi, meditaion and things like that which made it easy for me to discuss clicking with her. Which we did. And that discussion just made my bond stronger to logic and clicking in general as my mom agreed with what I said. Then I talked about it with my sister which helped me to gain even more trust in logic because she understood this and said it makes a lot of sense and she is already working on step 1.
So yesterday when I was in bed I was trying to click again with the yoyo method. What I've done wrong is that I haven't fully understood what "connecting a strong emotion to logic" means. I've just tried to think in pictures (not rationally in words because that doesn't work). While laying in bed picturing my inner child holding comfort and trying to connect negative thoughts to comfort and positive thoughts to logic.
And yesterday it happened. I thought about my mom, sister and dad. My family. I can not come up with any stronger emotional feeling other than thinking about my family. Think about your mom. And how much you love her. THAT feeling is the one you should connect to logic. Not your thoughts! It's the emotional FEELING. Just like they said in the wiki but obviously I didn't grasp it correctly which might be the case for you as well.
That's exactly what I did in bed yesterday. I thought about how much I love my family members, and when the emotional comfy feel-good feeling of love struck me, I thought "Yup, that is logic. My mom IS logic. My family IS logic.". Then I got a rush of, I guess dopamine, and a little euphoric feeling which lasted for a few seconds. I knew that I did it right. I finally clicked!
I went to bed, but it took a little while to fall asleep because I was so happy about the click and I was thinking that it maybe was placebo or something. It might be, but I don't think so. Even if it is placebo click that I experience now then it's okay because now I know exactly what you mean by connecting a strong emotion to logic. I get it and it's so amazing!
A couple days ago I quit my job because I can live off my IM money of $50 a day. On top of that the past few days I have been working so much on my websites and my ideas are so good, I'm just flowing with energy of improving my websites and I had a few ideas that would normally take me 1 month to implement but now I implement them instantly when they pop up in my head. I'm extremely confident and sure that I will be making 3 figures per day in the next couple month. My care for having a lot of money almost disappeared completely. Instead I want to use the money to help people in need. My plan is to do this long term by investing a lot of my money in order to grow them substantially, and in a few years I will most likely be donating millions to charity. I understand that investing is a risk so I will definitely be donating as much money as I can without it affecting my business or life negatively. I didn't make this pharagraph in order to get validation and cheers for donating money, I made it to explain how I think and if someone thinks its a bad idea I would love to hear how I should think instead. However I think my plan is great!
This is a thread I just made on an internet marketing forum. I believe it will be full of sheeps who don't understand the click, just like Athene's stream is full of sheeps who are just joking around and hating simply because they are to stupid to understand what we are trying to say:
They removed the thread due to it being religious, because in the thread I linked to asimpleclick.org which has a YT video saying "Science finds God". I explained to them that the God part is just a clickbait in order to attract a wider audience. Religious people would most likely watch it when they hear the world God. The sheep moderator didn't understand this and said "You are on the edge of harassing me about this. Stop." and threatened to ban me. I replied with this:
He completely ignored that message, I will never get a reply and the thread will never be unlocked. So I will stop wasting my time trying to convince this sheep.**
Anyway, I love the hate. It just spreads the click even more (okay, maybe not exactly in this situation as the thread got locked and deleted so no one can read it).
My stress level has gone from 80% stress in my body all the time down to 0% stress. I'm living!
I had tonsillectomy with complications. I started bleeding from my throat 2 days after the surgery which made me forced to stay home for a couple weeks. This allowed me a lot of time for thinking and discussing clicking with my mom and sister. They got interested in clicking and agreed with it, and I know that they are wise, probably smarter than me, so this boosted my confidence for logic even more. I tried clicking again (which I had tried 3-4 times in the past unsuccessfully) and this time I succeed.
I succeed with clicking because the emotional feeling I connected to logic was the love for my mom, sister and dad. I believe that is the key for MANY people who are trying to click.
EDIT: Fixed spelling errors, edited some text for better reading experience and updated some text around the BHW link because thread got deleted." source
PreClick Core Value:
"Hi there, I am 19 yo from Ukraine (Just3ds from discord/twitch). I had shift couple of days ago when I stopped chasing good experience and started subconsciously wanting to have positive impact. Before this change I constantly wanted to have the best experience and when I didn’t get any or when I had bad experience I felt miserable. Some insights made me push myself to do something impactful but in my core I never change and if for one day I wanted to do good because I realized my actions contribute to the bad in the world, next day I went back to procrastination and entertainment.
Logically I knew that existential death insight is the most powerful tool to lay an end to craving for experience and it helped me for some time but it didn’t changed me in the long run. Until one day I listened to “Judgement Day” vod on Twitch. In this vod Athene made connection with how this insight is similar to that in Christianity. And since I the past I was really into Christian literature and in particular writings of monks who gave up everything and lived in deserts, I felt like I can relate to it much easily. In their writings there is a very similar concept – Death to the world, where “world” means everything that is wrong and corrupt about our society: wars, greed, lust for power and so on. And after you die in this sense only thing that is worth living for is to have a positive impact on life itself.
When I found so powerful way to relate to this insight I had a talk with my brother where I explained him this insight and this was the first time when I saw that he also can relate to what I say and I realized how important it is for people to change this way as it not only turns people into impactful beings but also prevent harm they do when they chase experience. From this point on I naturally started to make decisions that are based on impact rather than on good experience.
PreClick Core Value: Comfort
"Hey guys, I wanted to share my story about clicking with you because I thought it might maybe help some of you plus I could use some feedback for my current situation. I have been following the real talk for quite some time and always thought that my core value was comfort. I created a lot of dissonance and thought about how comfort is a flawed core value and how it goes against itself. But I somehow couldn´t make the transition to making-sense/logic. My click happened when Ricardo talked about his former core value “gaining value“. It might sound a bit confusing to some people but he explains it here at 1:39:45https://www.twitch.tv/athenelive/v/95371855. I reflected on it and realised that I had the same problems like low self-esteem and feeling like you are worth less then others. I tried to compensate by gaining value in order to feel some kind of self worth. To be more specific, I looked at it through my lense of social conditioning and tried to gain value by doing illogical things like playing music, going to university, buying certain clothes or going to the gym only to build muscle. I grew emotionally attached to them (especially to music) because I thought these were the only things/actions that could provide value for me and make me feel better about myself. The way I clicked was by creating a lot of dissonance around my old core value and giving a strong positive emotion to logic. I compared gaining value to logic and realised how I try to stimulate my reward center with all these superficial things/actions that in reality don't give me any real value. Furthermore, I might fall in a deep hole if I wouldn't be able go to the gym due to an injury or drop out of university due to a failed exam. I realised that everything that I thought would give me value was just a product of social conditioning and that for example I woudn't be playing an instrument if I weren't born in the current time and society. Logic, on the other hand, is the thing that can give me the most value. By doing what is logical (e.g. moving forward, helping others, making a difference) I will have more value, more meaning in life and feel way better about myself. At this point I made the click. I started to feel the typical symptoms like the warm feeling in your chest, dopamine rush, my problems dissapeared, being more clear headed and a need to spread it. At this moment I literally felt like I could overcome any obstacle and I found myself unable to sleep for hours due to all the thoughts that poped-up in my head. Over the next 2 day my dopamine decreased and I started feeling anxiety and dissonance. At one point I even went back into old habits and stimmulated my “old“ neural pathways which caused my dissonance to overwhelm me and completely interrupted my logic-flow. I felt at my worst and came to the conclusion that I must have experienced a placebo click. It was the new video “LOGIC NATION: A Psychological Revolution“ that helped me to understand
that my trust in logic is not big enough yet and I therefore don't feel safe with it. I still need time to rewire myself. I tried to stimulate my new logical pathways by always asking myself “what is the most logical thing you can do right now?“ and acted according to my conclusions. Furthermore, I thought about how logic brings about all my safety (e.g. medicine, my parents house, family). The anxiety and dissonance greatly decreased and my trust in logic went up. Currently I'm working on increasing my trust in logic by listening to the stream/podcasts, watching Cosmos and trying to logically explain my dissonance when it comes up.(By the way I appreciate any feedback by you guys on how I can increase my trust in logic more)." Source
PreClick Core Value:
"At the beginning of the click thing I clicked (kinda). I would put my trust in logic and experience all the effects of clicking, it was pretty great but my trust wasn't unconditional. My understanding of my emotional core wan't correct either.
With time I drifted back to my old flaws. I though I wasn't doing that great because projects I was doing were demanding and this is how it is. But this was mostly bullshitting myself, because I wanted to believe I clicked.
Not to being clicked is shitty in all aspects (relatively to being clicked). So I wanted to reclick.
Common tricky part for me was that my emotions would try hard to conceal themselves. When I was evaluating something I would instinctively run away from conclusions that would make me change my views drastically. Don't know if it was my imagination or placebo, but with time I started recognizing it by feeling in my legs (kinda like I would want to physically run away). I was dealing with that by often stopping my though process and thinking if my conclusions were caused by this.
This was already ok before my first click, but unclicking made me feel like those flaws were because of logic. I had to realize that if I truly wanted consistency I would be much better of.
For example procrastination was caused mostly to flee from stuff I rationally wanted to do, because it seemed to be hard. It wouldn't seem hard if I had believed logic can give me the best answer I can have.
In this manner I managed to clear up my invalid view of logic
Initially I though it was comfort, because of all the procrastination that was playing big role in my life.
Then in one talk I realized it was actually validation. It was hard for me to agree with it at first, because I used to surround myself with people who don't care about most of the useless stuff others do. With time I managed to put many layers on top of it. For example I would imagine the response of other people, because by actually doing stuff I would risk failure. Also other fucked up stuff that doesn't make any sense. Also it would probably never resolve itself if I kept going this way.
Taking a leap took me the most time. Few times I would do kinda leap and think it worked, even though I lacked obvious symptoms. I though it was it because of underestimating effects of the click.
After the talk about how feeling of going back is not really a thing after the full click I decided to dedicate all my time to clicking until I get there.
Giving up the possibility of unclicking was very powerful. Then I spent all my time hunting for all the inconsistencies, debunking them one by one. At first I would still have doubts about it and uncovering where they come from helped me to get rid of them. Also was going back and forth from negatives of status quo to positives of clicking. All of this to the point where I felt like I can deal with any problems ahead.
It's still fresh from today. So far had no issues. I am feeling great. Coding goes very smooth. I am looking out for any inconsistencies, which I suspect to happen, but I am also pretty sure I can fix them." source